Mass Shooting at Ft. Hood Texas Army Base (Merged) - Updated - Page 15

Mass Shooting at Ft. Hood Texas Army Base (Merged) - Updated

This is a discussion on Mass Shooting at Ft. Hood Texas Army Base (Merged) - Updated within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; It's been real hard to get my mind rapped around this slaughter. It's not a tragedy....it was a calculated, pre-meditated attack on our military men ...

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  1. #211
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    It's been real hard to get my mind rapped around this slaughter. It's not a tragedy....it was a calculated, pre-meditated attack on our military men and women.

    I'm glad Malik Nadal Hasan survived because now he won't be a martyr. I'm proud that it was a female who brought him down. I think that is the ultimate insult to a religion who suppresses women's rights and treats them as subservants. According to reports, Hasan is paralyzed and will have to rely on Americans for his basic needs. Again, how ironic this is. He chose to murder Americans and will now have to rely on Americans who love and serve their country.

    It is obvious that Hasan put his religion above America. America was good enough to pay for his medical degree and to pay his salary. And how did he pay that back? He slaughtered American military men and women. As a mental health provider, he took a hipocratic oath to help others. And what did he do? He tried to convert returning soldiers to his muslim faith. Men and women with PTSD had to endure Hasan's rants about muslim religion.

    This brings up another subject. There were numerous complaints about Hasan. Why was he allowed to continue counseling returning soldiers? According to Hasan's family, he wanted out of the military and offered to buy back his education expenses. Why didn't his superiors allow him a way out? Instead, they chose to deploy him to Iraq (or Afghanistan). This man went through the proper channels to avoid being deployed. When his superiors knew he had a problem and was a loose cannon, why didn't they let him off the hook? Were they trying to be politically correct and it backfired on them? There are a lot of questions that DEMAND answers.

    There are so many ironies in this story.

    The most important thing that people should take note of is the fact that this man did not love America. He loved his religion the most.

    And if it happened with Hasan, it can happen again with another religious fanatic.

    Military leaders need to wake up before it happens again.
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. — Winston Churchill


  2. #212
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Patti

    ++++1, perfectly stated! I knew someone from here would sum it up way better than I could. Thank you.
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  3. #213
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    It seems....

    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    .

    Right now, it was HIM vs the Soldiers at Ft. Hood.

    Right now there is no US and there is no THEM. This may or may not be the case after investigations are done. But since they barely started, right now we don't know that.

    And that's what we know.

    If nevertheless someone wants to label this a war between large groups, that's their mind: it doesn't describe reality.

    I think it's healthier to wait until there's clarity from completed investigations and much more information known. And there's a far better chance of being correct in evaluating this tragedy and avoiding prejudice.

    This isn't PC. It's reason. "PC" is just another label that's hauled out to discount opinions from those one disagrees with. It creates another THEM.
    that your strongly held belief is 'reason', and other's strongly held beliefs are 'prejudice'. Others believe, perhaps, that when one makes statements, utters words during the course of murderous attacks, and/or publishes beliefs and opinions that tie their actions to a particular religious/political position, the perpetrator should be taken at face value. There is abundant anecdotal evidence of such in Hasan's case. Of course, there is the possibility that this is a mass conspiracy of individuals, who do not necessarily know each other, against the Major. I seriously doubt such. (quack,quack).
    Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is No Vice--Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice is No Virtue. - Senator Barry Goldwater

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    Patti

    ++++1, perfectly stated! I knew someone from here would sum it up way better than I could. Thank you.
    + 1 more
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  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patti View Post
    It is obvious that Hasan put his religion above America.

    The most important thing that people should take note of is the fact that this man did not love America. He loved his religion the most.

    And if it happened with Hasan, it can happen again with another religious fanatic.

    Military leaders need to wake up before it happens again.
    I hate to do this but, if we are true in our religious beliefs we all should put our religion above our country. I don't intend on turning this thread into a religious debate, but to point out what seems to be a flawed argument.

    Religion is not held by national boundries, so if one is true to their religion it will not matter where they reside. However if Hasad was a true believer in his faith he would not have carried out this attack on the soldiers of our country. He might well have put "his" beliefs to the forefont but that doesn't mean he was following his religion. There is a big difference between the two.

    I am most certain that there are devout Muslims that have no thoughts of killing their fellow countrymen. Regardless of where they live. Just as there are devout Christians, Jews, Hindus or believers in any other religion that don't do things like this, or have thoughts of this type of activity.

    Lets not confuse Hasad's personal beliefs that what he was doing was right with a particular religion. Hasad was a terrorist plain a simple. There is no justification for his actions, no matter where one looks, whether it be religion, profession, education or any other factors.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  6. #216
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    I don't intend on turning this thread into a religious debate...
    By your post, you are doing just that. You are turning this into a religious debate and that is against forum rules.

    We're not here to debate which religion is the right one.

    Hasan could have walked into a shopping mall and killed innocent civilians. But he didn't. He chose to kill military personnel getting ready to deploy.

    Now ask yourself: Why did he do that?
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. — Winston Churchill

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    I hate to do this but, if we are true in our religious beliefs we all should put our religion above our country.
    Not when a person is "hired" to place country first, one shouldn't.

    In such roles, the whole point of the exercise is protection of the country and its people ... not massacre of them. To the extent a person has strong beliefs in anything that puts the role secondary, that person is a threat to the role. (Which is true of any job of any kind, for a company or country or whatever.)
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  8. #218
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    The shooter took a oath of service and violated his oath. The conflict in his mind between service to country and religion had to occupy his thought life and soul. Finely the brake in reality came for some reason he himself may not understand.

    Some religions just do not mesh well with the American system of government or thought, while other religions are the underpinning and foundation of our great nation. We are in a cultural war and religion is in the forefront of that war.

    It would be nice if it stayed a battle of ideas and words, but it may move into a physical war of violence and more mass killing.

  9. #219
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patti View Post
    By your post, you are doing just that. You are turning this into a religious debate and that is against forum rules.

    We're not here to debate which religion is the right one.

    Hasan could have walked into a shopping mall and killed innocent civilians. But he didn't. He chose to kill military personnel getting ready to deploy.

    Now ask yourself: Why did he do that?
    He did it because he is a terrorist and a bad person. That is the plain and simple truth of it.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Not when a person is "hired" to place country first, one shouldn't.

    In such roles, the whole point of the exercise is protection of the country and its people ... not massacre of them. To the extent a person has strong beliefs in anything that puts the role secondary, that person is a threat to the role. (Which is true of any job of any kind, for a company or country or whatever.)
    When I was in the service I didn't stop being a Catholic or a christian. There is nothing in any mainstream religious beliefs that I am aware of that would prohibit one from being in any military branch of service and doing or following any lawful orders.

    The point being is that Hasan's beliefs were his own, not that of his religion. It was his mind and body that caused these actions only. I am not looking any further than the man himself for excuses or reasons for his behavior.

    His "justification" for his actions has no basis in reality or can not be supported by any factual circumstances, so there is no point in looking beyond the man himself. No more than trying to find justification for the person who robs a bank or rapes the woman down the road. It is all of their own doing and justified in their own minds only.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  11. #221
    Ex Member Array Butch's Avatar
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    In Response to Hamlet,

    This was just one battle in a war unloosed by an ideology of conquest and subjugation of the non-muslim. Whether you believe it or not. According to the Koran their are two "Houses", the House of Islam and the House of War...guess which one we (the U.S. ) is part of ? that it offfends you or hurts your feelings, changes nothing. Yes, there are christians, Jews, Hindus, and Atheists, etc who commit atrocities, in SPITE of their beliefs, not because. Please read the Koran and the Hadiths, don't take my word for it. For more examples check Islam: Making a True Difference in the World . If you don't see the pattern you are in serious denial.
    Riddle me this, When you first heard that there was a mass shooting on an Army base...what did you first think ? My first thought and I'm sure that of many others were that it was an act of Jihad by a Muslim/Muslims.
    The next day when I heard of the shooting in an office building in Florida my first thought was of an ex or current employee there. When I heard of the gang rape in California, my first thought was of a Mexican Gang. Some things just go together like Cake and Ice Cream.

    FarronWolf,
    You are correct in your assertion. The thing is that other faiths have out of necessity changed with the times, and even by force of Government .If the church had it their way they'd still be burning witches. Islam does not permit separation of church and state. Loyalty is owed no government or state ,only the religion.
    The Muslim faith has not had anything like the Enlightenment, nor will it, as their text calls itself the divine word,straight from God, unchanged and unchangeable, there is no changing the word or beliefs. You either believe all of it, or you don't.
    People of other faiths can change religions, or have none. Catholics/Christians,etc cherry pick the Bible and ignore what they want and the Pope doesn't call for their heads. Try leaving Islam , changing it to suit you, or being an Atheist in Saudi Arabia or anywhere that Islam rules. You won't last long. Look at Theo Van Gogh, Hirsan Ali, Salman Rushdie or the Danish Cartoon example. Not long ago someone accused a Dr in Pakistan of burning a bible and a mob ripped him from the police and burned him alive. These people are TRUE believers, We(I use the term loosely as I am strictly a Naturalist ) are just convenient, casual believers in comparison.
    Like Sam Harris says, the problem is faith, the difference is only in degree.
    I'm not going to debate this tedious topic. I don't have a horse in the religion race. My concern is for my country and humanity in general. I would hate for the world of the future to live in mental chains like the people do in Muslim countries.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    .

    Right now, it was HIM vs the Soldiers at Ft. Hood.

    Right now there is no US and there is no THEM. This may or may not be the case after investigations are done. But since they barely started, right now we don't know that.

    And that's what we know.

    If nevertheless someone wants to label this a war between large groups, that's their mind: it doesn't describe reality.

    I think it's healthier to wait until there's clarity from completed investigations and much more information known. And there's a far better chance of being correct in evaluating this tragedy and avoiding prejudice.

    This isn't PC. It's reason. "PC" is just another label that's hauled out to discount opinions from those one disagrees with. It creates another THEM.

  12. #222
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    ok, for those that weren't involved with this thread, some of my posts (and some of other members) were removed due to mentioning some religious things

    my apologies for getting something started that shouldn't have

    however, it was my intent to point out and and affirmatively say that this act had all the signs of previous terrorist acts....period
    if I would have left it at that then the back and forth may not have been so heated

    but the minute I mentioned the radical/fanatic followers of a religion then some people here immediately painted me with a racist, prejudiced, intolerant, hate-spewing paintbrush
    nothing could be further from the truth, I am not racist, prejudiced, or hate-filled.....BUT, I will never EVER withhold an opinion to keep from hurting someone's feelings, we're talking about murderous people that would kill all of us if they had a chance

    A member here is obviously (based on their posts) non-Caucasian and jumped to conclusions about me and my thoughts, completely misunderstanding me, to him I can say I was not meaning to offend you the way you took it, feel free to PM me if you'd like

    Sixto, you are right on, agree 1000000%

    I think we should have the right to have an opinion of seeing things for what they are, no matter what color of skin, no matter what religion, no matter what race, nationality, language, etc.....if we see something and form and opinion based on previous acts and history we are not hate-spewing racists as some have labeled me (surprised by some of the people who have said that about me)

    on my job I don't look at a person that is [insert skin color, nationality, economic status here] and think they are a crack dealer, terrorist, child-molester, white-collar crime instigator, etc
    however, if I see signs of things that have taken place in the past then yes I do think they are of the same mindset and their actions are based on that, and that alone
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  13. #223
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    Others believe, perhaps, that when one makes statements, utters words during the course of murderous attacks, and/or publishes beliefs and opinions that tie their actions to a particular religious/political position, the perpetrator should be taken at face value. There is abundant anecdotal evidence of such in Hasan's case.
    There is no evidence at this early point of a conspiracy, an organizational tie, a command structure giving an order, or the particpation of any other individual in the planning, execution or aftermath of the killings at Ft. Hood. This is unlike the the major terrorist attacks of 9/11, London, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. where there was clear evidence of all of the above.

    The investigations have just begun. They may discover such things. But that hasn't happened; right now there is no group and therefore no group to blame.

    The mindset of terrorism interprets all events as part of their "war", and all people as "us" and "them" ("enemy"). There's no reason for us to fall into that same pattern. It's far healthier to take a breath, investigate thoroughly and draw conclusions then, when we know what's actual.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Are Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, Hasan Akbar or Nidal Malik Hasan extremists?

    How about John Allen Muhammad?
    So were these guys extremists? Did they answer to a larger group?

    We can play a quotable quotes game if you'd like;

    · “Allah Akbar” and the following attempt at poetry: “Many more will have to suffer/Many more will have to die/Don’t ask me why.”

    · “We will kill them all. Jihad.”

    · A sketch of Osama bin Laden with the caption: “Servant of Allah.”

    · An image of the World Trade Center with a jet flying into it and this caption: “You were warned.”

    · “Our minarets are our bayonets/Our mosques are our baracks (sic)/Our believers are our soldiers.”

    · A depiction of with these words from the Qu’ran (”Surah 2:190″): “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you and slay them wherever ye catch them.”
    "Just blame Sixto"

  15. #225
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    Ants. There is no conspiracy among ants to leave the nest and forage. They have been imprinted at birth for the task they are to do. When they overtake, kill, and dismember an earthworm, they are not conspiring with each other. Each individual does his part and the big picture will work out. To say the next earthworm will not die because the ants who did in the last earthworm were not conspiring is a surreal line of thought.

    When children are brainwashed from birth into a system of belief, when adults become convinced the non-believer must die, when mainline clerics continue to call for death to non-believers we have something akin to an ant colony. A few loonies do buy into the indoctrination and do carry out the wishes of the clerics. These loonies may not conspire with each other before each murder, before each honor killing, before each stoning, before each caning for not wearing the proper clothing, before each call to murder an offending author, but they do commit the crimes in the name of Islam. And all of Islam stands by and clucks their tongue while the swarm marches on in quest of the pre-programmed goals. I can understand moderate Islam not intervening. The reality is many agree with the goals of the terrorists if not the means.

    What I cannot understand is the targets of the conquest not believing the history, current events, nor the strategic objective of radical Islam. This (fill in the blank) acted alone, therefore everything else doesn't exist and the next attack will not happen. Please.
    Last edited by tiwee; November 8th, 2009 at 07:18 PM. Reason: spelling

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