Little known law (?)

This is a discussion on Little known law (?) within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by GunnyBunny ...I do not know any Country that will just punt you if you are caught bringing in something that is illegal/tightly ...

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Thread: Little known law (?)

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyBunny View Post
    ...I do not know any Country that will just punt you if you are caught bringing in something that is illegal/tightly controlled in that Country.
    Agreed.

    Where on Earth does that kind of end result occur?
    Not in the US, Mexico, and clearly not Canada either...No where that I've ever heard of.

    Earlier this year some guy wanting to go hunting in Russia got busted same way for bringing ammunition on an _international flight_ and doing so from the US (!) as through two other airports before being caught (BUSTED!) in Russia by their national security forces.
    This too was featured here at that time and sentiment was same. Do not do this.

    We're talking about a national border and govt. border patrol agents not some concert/sporting arena where he got caught by an employee of Wackenhutt or Wells Fargo security services.

    - Janq

    "Stupid is, stupid does." - Forrest Gump's momma
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Don't be so quick to judge on this issue. We don't know what occurred.

    Our legal system is derived in great measure from English Common Law, as is the Canadian system, and habeas corpus was a part of English law since the Magna Carta, I think.

    As for the gun issue, anyone traveling abroad needs to know the laws of the country they are going to. Yes, the proposed punishment seems harsh, but as usual, like here in the US, some bargain will be reached.

    And stuff like this happens here too. Once upon a time a NYC police officer drove into NJ and was promptly arrested and charged with felony possession. He lost at the SC level. (And he should have known better too.)
    Yes I will agree with you Hop. We do not know the details of this story. It was unlike the Navy SEALs whacking the terrorist murderer on the lips.

    This is something not under the pressure of war but could easily be another factor that caused this to happen.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KralBlbec View Post
    If he hadn't crossed the border yet, then there was no crime. If he had crossed the border, then it is bad light on the border guards for not finding it. If they did find it and didn't say anything until he crossed, then they are partly culpable too.

    IMO he should have been kicked out of Canada and been told never to come back and that be the end of it.
    Neither view plays out.

    Criminal 'intent' is a crime most everywhere, including here in the US as at our own borders...Where we do not kick folks back for same infractions either.

    As to kicked out of Canada if he has made it to never mind past the border then well he's committed a federal crime, as in Canada.
    To not prosecute sets a bad example AND more importantly legal precedent as a matter of procedure.
    What country can afford that?
    Very much notably the US cannot as by recent reporting alone, so to expect same from our neighbors just isn't realistic nor balanced in view.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #49
    Member Array M203Sniper's Avatar
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    Very much notably the US cannot as by recent reporting alone, so to expect same from our neighbors just isn't realistic nor balanced in view.
    For the longest time Canada had a law against being a native American. Registering them, containing movement and outlawing a gathering of more than 3 individuals. I guess expecting them to have a fair view of human rights is a little bit crazy.
    "Words can be as lethal as bullets; Choose them carefully, Aim them well & Use them sparingly."

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M203Sniper View Post
    For the longest time Canada had a law against being a native American. Registering them, containing movement and outlawing a gathering of more than 3 individuals. I guess expecting them to have a fair view of human rights is a little bit crazy.
    Half of my family are Indian and live on a reservation in Canada (Quebec), never have their movements been restricted nor have they not been allowed to gather in large groups. They have been travailing to the states to visit us since the 1960's that I know of alone.
    That I know of the only registration of them is through the Council of Indian Affairs in Ottawa.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

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  7. #51
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    re: KralBlbec

    Quote Originally Posted by KralBlbec View Post
    If he hadn't crossed the border yet, then there was no crime. If he had crossed the border, then it is bad light on the border guards for not finding it. If they did find it and didn't say anything until he crossed, then they are partly culpable too.
    I don't think I understand your point. No one inspects your vehicle on the US side of the border as you head into Canada. It is your right to leave the country. (Not so in many other places.)

    Once in Canada, he has committed the crime.

    When you cross international borders the first stop is 'immigration.' Passport or other id check. The next stop is Customs. At that point if you have something with you that you should not have, you are in trouble.

    I've been in international arrival terminals in other countries (and here too) where they have signs warning you can't have this and you can't have that, and garbage bins where you can toss stuff for amnesty. Or, they tell you to declare anything you are not sure of--in which case all that happens is the stuff gets taken. But if you don't declare, or lie, and something is found after you lied, get out the check book; and then only if you are lucky enough that the handcuffs don't come out too.

    The point, no one stops you from leaving the US with whatever as there is no search of your vehicle as you drive out---unless things have changed very recently post 9/11. And once on the other side, you must declare certain items.

  8. #52
    Member Array M203Sniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    Half of my family are Indian and live on a reservation in Canada (Quebec), never have their movements been restricted nor have they not been allowed to gather in large groups. They have been travailing to the states to visit us since the 1960's that I know of alone.
    That I know of the only registration of them is through the Council of Indian Affairs in Ottawa.
    That law went away in the 70'-80's

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Act
    "Words can be as lethal as bullets; Choose them carefully, Aim them well & Use them sparingly."

  9. #53
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KralBlbec View Post
    If he had crossed the border, then it is bad light on the border guards for not finding it. If they did find it and didn't say anything until he crossed, then they are partly culpable too.

    I'm sorry, but this is among the most bogus statements I have ever read. The border agents don't bear any responsibility in this. You are not stripsearched when you cross the border into Canada. Your car is not disassembled into scrap. If we really held that they were resonsible for a single firearm coming/going across the border, then the only way they can avoid being "culpable" in every single smuggling case is to start the strip searches and vehicle disassembly. I'm still amazed at quickly our society looks for somebody else to blame. It is always someone else's fault. The only person "culpable" is the guy who "forgot" he had a loaded gun or was too dense to realize he was entering another country with their own laws and justice system.
    Gonzo
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  10. #54
    Member Array M203Sniper's Avatar
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    The only person "culpable" is the guy who "forgot" he had a loaded gun or was too dense to realize he was entering another country with their own laws and justice system.
    that is a straw man argument. He was irresponsible for not knowing the law.- Of course.
    To say that he should spend 3 years in prison is insane. To say that you lose your rights when you cross the red line on the map.

    If you cross into Mexico and they kill you because they outlawed interracial marriages then that is your fault for not knowing the laws.

    You forfeit the right to life in that situation. Is losing the right to self defense any different?

    Not in my mind.
    "Words can be as lethal as bullets; Choose them carefully, Aim them well & Use them sparingly."

  11. #55
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    Yeah, not a little know thing. And I'm not sure I believe the "I forgot" line. More likely he is one of those guys who thinks he should be able to take his gun anywhere and just decided to take it and got caught.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array Stetson's Avatar
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    Before I even think about taking a firearm with me to a new state let a lone a country I want to know the rules for the country where I was going just because it's close doesn't mean we are going to enjoy the same freedoms as
    we do home.

  13. #57
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M203Sniper View Post
    that is a straw man argument. He was irresponsible for not knowing the law.- Of course.
    To say that he should spend 3 years in prison is insane. To say that you lose your rights when you cross the red line on the map.

    If you cross into Mexico and they kill you because they outlawed interracial marriages then that is your fault for not knowing the laws.

    You forfeit the right to life in that situation. Is losing the right to self defense any different?

    Not in my mind.
    Please explain how, in any way, my statement is a "strawman argument". I never discussed the penalty and whether or not it was appropriate. I simply stated that is culpable for not knowing the law or "forgetting" he had a gun. So, if you would, please explain how he is not culpable and hence, my statement being a "strawman argument". Not trying to be argumentative, but I truly don't see how you can think he is not culpable.
    Respectfully,
    Gonzo
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  14. #58
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    We need to get

    Did he violate the Federal law of another Country?

    Yes.

    Did he do it knowingly?

    Probably.

    Did it happen to him because of his nationality, race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, or shoe size?

    No.

    If he had been pulled over in New Jersey and was found to have hollow points would he be in jail.

    Yes.

    Assuming he has a CCW permit (probably a badge too) and was found to be armed in another state that did not recognize his permit, would he be in jail.

    Yes.

    Pretty simple.

    You break the law of another Country or State and you go to the Big House, the hooscow, the slammer, etc.
    CCW permit holder for Idaho, Utah, Pennsylvania, Maine and New Hampshire. I can carry in your country but not my own.

  15. #59
    Member Array KralBlbec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    I'm sorry, but this is among the most bogus statements I have ever read. The border agents don't bear any responsibility in this. You are not stripsearched when you cross the border into Canada. Your car is not disassembled into scrap. If we really held that they were resonsible for a single firearm coming/going across the border, then the only way they can avoid being "culpable" in every single smuggling case is to start the strip searches and vehicle disassembly. I'm still amazed at quickly our society looks for somebody else to blame. It is always someone else's fault. The only person "culpable" is the guy who "forgot" he had a loaded gun or was too dense to realize he was entering another country with their own laws and justice system.
    Gonzo
    You didnt read what I said. If they knew he had it and waited until it was already in the country to say anything then they pretty much set him up, regardless of if he knew he had it or that it was illegal. Its like waiting to have a baggage check until you are on the plane itself. By that time it is already too late and they set you up for failure. Had he still been on US territory and found out about it, then there would have been no crime and he could have gone back home.

    We don't know at what point the guards found out about it, so its really just speculation on everybodys part.

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by KralBlbec View Post
    You didnt read what I said. If they knew he had it and waited until it was already in the country to say anything then they pretty much set him up, regardless of if he knew he had it or that it was illegal. Its like waiting to have a baggage check until you are on the plane itself. By that time it is already too late and they set you up for failure. Had he still been on US territory and found out about it, then there would have been no crime and he could have gone back home.

    We don't know at what point the guards found out about it, so its really just speculation on everybodys part.
    How would the Canadian Border Services know he had it while he was still on the US side of the border.

    Your argument does not hold water.
    CCW permit holder for Idaho, Utah, Pennsylvania, Maine and New Hampshire. I can carry in your country but not my own.

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