Clerk can't shoot back because he forgot his safety

This is a discussion on Clerk can't shoot back because he forgot his safety within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Yes people do get hit in the hands, but as relative to the number of persons shot and the places where they get/have been hit...Very ...

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Thread: Clerk can't shoot back because he forgot his safety

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yes people do get hit in the hands, but as relative to the number of persons shot and the places where they get/have been hit...Very much often they are not hits to the hand, never mind hit in both hands in one instance as from two shots such as was this guys case.

    Not just formally trained people look at and watch for hands, BGs do this too.
    It's a human condition to watch the hands.
    Even still the vast majority of people shot are not shot in the hands, as with bullets. That guys case is the first I'd seen ever of a person being shot in both hands and it was the first in a long time that I'd read of a person being shot in the hand at all. I did not say it was an unreasonable position. It's just not an event that real world occurs all that often. Akin to being shot in the shin or big toe, which also has happened but not all that often all things being relative.

    Still though and again I do agree with you that cave man simple is best overall; ala DA revolver.
    Pull the trigger gun goes bang. End of mechanical function story...Best case scenario.

    With a 1911 though various type design grip safetys are offered including those with a 'memory bump' and even a full pad hump as an extension to ensure activation almost without any regard to hand grip angle.
    This guy problem per hisown statement was in that he could not grip the gun thanks to his hand having been shot. That would have been a same issue for him as with any other type handgun including a revolver or a Glock.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    This fact is yet more evidence (to my way of thinking) that SD firearms need to be as simple as possible; easy to fire and manipulate with the fewest amount of levers, knobs, buttons, and switches. Is the incident as described in the linked thread the "typical" incident? Certainly not (if there can even be said to be such a thing). Is it unreasonable to think that you may be using one hand, one injured hand, to run your gun? While I admit that it isn't the most likely scenario, I also submit that it's not unreasonable.
    This board originally led me to the same train of thought. I ended up deciding that I won't EDC something with external safeties. My current rotation options consist of a G19, LCP or 637. Anyone of the three I feel I can carry safely (round in the chamber) and be able to access with one hand that has the thumb shot off and still make the weapon fire in the direction that I want it to.

    That being said, I still love 1911's! They're just not my edc.
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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KralBlbec View Post
    Its debatable, but there could be a valid point about trying to stealthily disable a safety and have the audible click give you away. Anyway you cut it, that guy was lucky.
    Agreed. ^^

    One of my 1911s makes an audible click, the other two do not.
    All three from different first tier manufacturers; Colt (non OEM Wilson ambi safety), Sig Sauer (OEM single sided safety) and Springfield Armory (OEM ambi safety).
    Only the SA makes a click/snick sound albeit now very light thanks to the safety having been well worn in from use.
    As new both the Sig and SA made a loud and discernible click/snick, and deactivating the safety took more effort/pressure to flip down.

    I purposefully lube behind the frame safeties on my guns with a grease to reduce the otherwise dry metal to metal SNICK! sound on my guns.
    I do this every time I clean them, just as I did last night on the Sig and SA.

    Under these conditions make noise to mask the sound.

    Say words to distract such as; 'Oh lawd...Pleeze don't hurt <snick> us! Here's all my BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG....'.
    Or even fake a sneeze, cough or pretend dry heave as though the stress has caused you to uncontrollably lose your lunch.

    Do what you've got to do...Period...To survive.

    - Janq carries nothing but mildly customized 1911s
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #19
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    /offtopic

    Gotta love the movie scene where the good guys are hiding and waiting for the bad guy and they decide to cock/remove safety from their gun right as the bad guy is 2 feet away around a corner or something, thereby giving themselves away.

  6. #20
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  7. #21
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    This guy problem per hisown statement was in that he could not grip the gun thanks to his hand having been shot. That would have been a same issue for him as with any other type handgun including a revolver or a Glock.
    The way I read it, he could grip it enough to pull the trigger, but not enough to depress the grip safety properly. He was (we assume) pulling the trigger, but nothing was happening, leading him to believe that his weapon had jammed. When he inspected it, albeit briefly and under extreme stress, he found no evidence of a jam, and surmised that he wasn't depressing the grip safety properly. Again, I admit that this is one instance and a pretty rare set of circumstances, and I'm not encouraging anyone to carry anything based only in this incident...it's just one small side dish to add to our "food for thought."
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I read it as same.

    On a 1911 the amount of pressure and movement required to deactivate the grip safety is a modicum.
    Maybe a pound of grip pressure if even that.



    If the grip safety is not deactivated then the handlers gun hand is functionally holding it with the lightest of grip.
    Never mind the fact that this man was under combat stress and thus it is fair to assume that he was as best he could clutching that gun to shoot and not handling it gingerly.
    Also the amount of hand strength required to be able to pull a typical OEM setup 1911 trigger is in the 5.5 to 6lb. range.
    That requires a good amount of hand strength and grip pressure as associated to be functional.

    Below is an image of the victims own gun per his own post at the Dan Wesson forum as before it was used in the gun fight.
    Specifically take note of the grip safety and it being the memory bump design...


    Source - http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=257561

    Now imagine yourself shot in the gun/strong hand. As described by the victim in his own words...

    Looking back on it, I think I realized that I wasn't getting a good grip due to the had the little problem with the next round not going off, thinking I had a jam, I ducked behind the table to clear the gun and yelled for everyone to stay down. I looked down and saw how bad my hands were as I cleared the round out, and stood back up to continue fire. (Looking back on it, I think I realized that I wasn't getting a good grip due to the screwed up hand and neglected to engage the grip safety)...
    I don't know how I retained the gun after being hit in the strong hand, just as I don't know how I made my hands work to clear the round. I just did. It was a combination of adrenaline, survival instinct and the grace of God.

    Right Hand Entry Wound
    He was going to suffer functional loss of ability with his gun/strong hand regardless of what kind of gun he'd had in that hand.
    Being shot in both hands at that as odd upon odds is even more remarkable.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #23
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    That's what happens when you own a smoke shop and have been robbed before and then you go decide to run out and buy a gun for "protection" and then try to use it without having ever really even looked at it.

    Even if he knew WHERE the safety WAS...the firearm still probably would not have done him any good because I'll bet he also didn't know that it needs to be loaded in order for it to go bang.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post

    - Janq carries nothing but mildly customized 1911s
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    This is not a firearm choice or mechanics issue.
    This is 100% a training, or rather lack there of, issue.

    The gun owner was not trained in use of his sidearm.
    That lack of training is why he failed.

    This is why I strongly advocate people who with any degree of self defense use seriousness buy firearms of _any_ sort to become intimately familiar with their function and how to operate them, as to a high level.

    Simply taking it out of the box and loading a 'clip' (common term as used by such gun noobs/untrained persons) or placing ammo in it is not enough.
    A trained person knows that such firearms with external/frame safeties are to be turned off (to HOT) as part of the draw from holster in one smooth motion. This is a learned skill that can only be acquired with success as by training.

    This person clearly as based on results was not trained, and that error nearly cost him his life.

    1911 type format and/or handguns are not the only type to come with an external safety.
    Same applys to longguns such as shotguns and rifles too, which people in modern cases past have also like this guy been caught short for exact same reason.

    In one case last year a man and his adult son were disarmed at the mans front door by a home invader as he brought to bear a shotgun only to fail because he did not know how to unset the safety. The BG wrenched the gun by the barrel from the mans hands, turned it on him and his son, unset the safety and fired upon them both killing the man and gravely wounding he son. This too was featured here at DC.com.

    Train.

    - Janq

    While I understand what jang is saying, and agree with a lot of it;;;

    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Wow, I just posted on another thread about the anecdotal evidence supporting my opinion that external safeties are "bad" on SD pistols... I guess when it rains, it pours.

    ^^^^^^^I will hold to this belief^^^^^^^^^

    For the simple fact that if/when I am ever faced with suddenly pulling my firearm in a defensive situation, who knows what I was thinking of just moments before, what I was doing, and what my frame of mind will be when faced with the events that unfold in mere nano-seconds.



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  12. #26
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    Muscle memory, never leave home without it!
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  13. #27
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    This why I recommend 1. Revolvers and 2. Autos WITHOUT external safeties and consistent triggers (DAO) to civilian shooters. Most people will NEVER train enough to build muscle memory nor frequently enough to reinforce it. They most certainly should but they won't. That's the real world.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Muscle memory, never leave home without it!
    Bingo! ^^

    For example as something that everyone can relate to, when you go to brush your teeth at night do you rinse and soften up the bristles on your tooth brush before applying toothpaste, after applying toothpaste or not at all.

    For those who fit in the third category, they are akin to the people like this shop keeper who most likely do not train.
    The remaining two thirds I would bet a months pay that 99% of those persons if asked or observed would report doing so without conscious thought. It just sorta happens. Autopilot if you will.
    This is so called muscle memory which really in the specific case of gun handling is nothing more than an ingrained skill set as developed through repetitive motion training.

    Training resolves this 'problem' and makes it go by by.
    Under stress there is no need to remember because the skill as a sub-program is well known to the brain at a sub-conscious level and runs on it's own, automatically, as a condition of the conditions related to the conscious self directing the brain to draw the firearm to start.

    Exact same conditioning and automatic result as firearm experienced and well trained persons will apply to the trigger finger and do place indexed to the frame/receiver as rather than for darn near 99% of inexperienced and untrained people who will place their finger on the trigger...As without conscious thought, and do so repeatedly even upon being advised and then told to not do so repeatedly just moments prior.

    Training overcomes functional deficency, most all the time.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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