That being said, I still love 1911's! They're just not my edc.
This is a discussion on Clerk can't shoot back because he forgot his safety within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Yes people do get hit in the hands, but as relative to the number of persons shot and the places where they get/have been hit...Very ...
Yes people do get hit in the hands, but as relative to the number of persons shot and the places where they get/have been hit...Very much often they are not hits to the hand, never mind hit in both hands in one instance as from two shots such as was this guys case.
Not just formally trained people look at and watch for hands, BGs do this too.
It's a human condition to watch the hands.
Even still the vast majority of people shot are not shot in the hands, as with bullets. That guys case is the first I'd seen ever of a person being shot in both hands and it was the first in a long time that I'd read of a person being shot in the hand at all. I did not say it was an unreasonable position. It's just not an event that real world occurs all that often. Akin to being shot in the shin or big toe, which also has happened but not all that often all things being relative.
Still though and again I do agree with you that cave man simple is best overall; ala DA revolver.
Pull the trigger gun goes bang. End of mechanical function story...Best case scenario.
With a 1911 though various type design grip safetys are offered including those with a 'memory bump' and even a full pad hump as an extension to ensure activation almost without any regard to hand grip angle.
This guy problem per hisown statement was in that he could not grip the gun thanks to his hand having been shot. That would have been a same issue for him as with any other type handgun including a revolver or a Glock.
That being said, I still love 1911's! They're just not my edc.
'Clinging to my guns and religion
One of my 1911s makes an audible click, the other two do not.
All three from different first tier manufacturers; Colt (non OEM Wilson ambi safety), Sig Sauer (OEM single sided safety) and Springfield Armory (OEM ambi safety).
Only the SA makes a click/snick sound albeit now very light thanks to the safety having been well worn in from use.
As new both the Sig and SA made a loud and discernible click/snick, and deactivating the safety took more effort/pressure to flip down.
I purposefully lube behind the frame safeties on my guns with a grease to reduce the otherwise dry metal to metal SNICK! sound on my guns.
I do this every time I clean them, just as I did last night on the Sig and SA.
Under these conditions make noise to mask the sound.
Say words to distract such as; 'Oh lawd...Pleeze don't hurt <snick> us! Here's all my BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG....'.
Or even fake a sneeze, cough or pretend dry heave as though the stress has caused you to uncontrollably lose your lunch.
Do what you've got to do...Period...To survive.
- Janq carries nothing but mildly customized 1911s
Gotta love the movie scene where the good guys are hiding and waiting for the bad guy and they decide to cock/remove safety from their gun right as the bad guy is 2 feet away around a corner or something, thereby giving themselves away.
Biggest reason I carry a Glock
Timid people sleep peacefully at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
The way I read it, he could grip it enough to pull the trigger, but not enough to depress the grip safety properly. He was (we assume) pulling the trigger, but nothing was happening, leading him to believe that his weapon had jammed. When he inspected it, albeit briefly and under extreme stress, he found no evidence of a jam, and surmised that he wasn't depressing the grip safety properly. Again, I admit that this is one instance and a pretty rare set of circumstances, and I'm not encouraging anyone to carry anything based only in this incident...it's just one small side dish to add to our "food for thought."This guy problem per hisown statement was in that he could not grip the gun thanks to his hand having been shot. That would have been a same issue for him as with any other type handgun including a revolver or a Glock.
A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.
I read it as same.
On a 1911 the amount of pressure and movement required to deactivate the grip safety is a modicum.
Maybe a pound of grip pressure if even that.
If the grip safety is not deactivated then the handlers gun hand is functionally holding it with the lightest of grip.
Never mind the fact that this man was under combat stress and thus it is fair to assume that he was as best he could clutching that gun to shoot and not handling it gingerly.
Also the amount of hand strength required to be able to pull a typical OEM setup 1911 trigger is in the 5.5 to 6lb. range.
That requires a good amount of hand strength and grip pressure as associated to be functional.
Below is an image of the victims own gun per his own post at the Dan Wesson forum as before it was used in the gun fight.
Specifically take note of the grip safety and it being the memory bump design...
Source - http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=257561
Now imagine yourself shot in the gun/strong hand. As described by the victim in his own words...
He was going to suffer functional loss of ability with his gun/strong hand regardless of what kind of gun he'd had in that hand.Looking back on it, I think I realized that I wasn't getting a good grip due to the had the little problem with the next round not going off, thinking I had a jam, I ducked behind the table to clear the gun and yelled for everyone to stay down. I looked down and saw how bad my hands were as I cleared the round out, and stood back up to continue fire. (Looking back on it, I think I realized that I wasn't getting a good grip due to the screwed up hand and neglected to engage the grip safety)...
I don't know how I retained the gun after being hit in the strong hand, just as I don't know how I made my hands work to clear the round. I just did. It was a combination of adrenaline, survival instinct and the grace of God.
Right Hand Entry Wound
Being shot in both hands at that as odd upon odds is even more remarkable.
That's what happens when you own a smoke shop and have been robbed before and then you go decide to run out and buy a gun for "protection" and then try to use it without having ever really even looked at it.
Even if he knew WHERE the safety WAS...the firearm still probably would not have done him any good because I'll bet he also didn't know that it needs to be loaded in order for it to go bang.
For freedom is never free someone else just picks up tab.
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Kimber Eclips Pro II
Marlin Camp Rifle .45acp
A 9mm may expand but a .45acp won't shrink
Remember there are only two types of Ships in the Navy, SUBMARINES and Targets!
While I understand what jang is saying, and agree with a lot of it;;;
^^^^^^^I will hold to this belief^^^^^^^^^
For the simple fact that if/when I am ever faced with suddenly pulling my firearm in a defensive situation, who knows what I was thinking of just moments before, what I was doing, and what my frame of mind will be when faced with the events that unfold in mere nano-seconds.
If a cat always lands on its feet, and buttered bread always lands butter side down, what would happen if you tied buttered bread on top of a cat?
I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."
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Muscle memory, never leave home without it!
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NRA Life Member
This why I recommend 1. Revolvers and 2. Autos WITHOUT external safeties and consistent triggers (DAO) to civilian shooters. Most people will NEVER train enough to build muscle memory nor frequently enough to reinforce it. They most certainly should but they won't. That's the real world.
For example as something that everyone can relate to, when you go to brush your teeth at night do you rinse and soften up the bristles on your tooth brush before applying toothpaste, after applying toothpaste or not at all.
For those who fit in the third category, they are akin to the people like this shop keeper who most likely do not train.
The remaining two thirds I would bet a months pay that 99% of those persons if asked or observed would report doing so without conscious thought. It just sorta happens. Autopilot if you will.
This is so called muscle memory which really in the specific case of gun handling is nothing more than an ingrained skill set as developed through repetitive motion training.
Training resolves this 'problem' and makes it go by by.
Under stress there is no need to remember because the skill as a sub-program is well known to the brain at a sub-conscious level and runs on it's own, automatically, as a condition of the conditions related to the conscious self directing the brain to draw the firearm to start.
Exact same conditioning and automatic result as firearm experienced and well trained persons will apply to the trigger finger and do place indexed to the frame/receiver as rather than for darn near 99% of inexperienced and untrained people who will place their finger on the trigger...As without conscious thought, and do so repeatedly even upon being advised and then told to not do so repeatedly just moments prior.
Training overcomes functional deficency, most all the time.