Clerk can't shoot back because he forgot his safety

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Thread: Clerk can't shoot back because he forgot his safety

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Clerk can't shoot back because he forgot his safety

    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Training training training. It's a good reminder folks. Don't let it be you.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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    Wow, I just posted on another thread about the anecdotal evidence supporting my opinion that external safeties are "bad" on SD pistols... I guess when it rains, it pours.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Member Array rmccoll's Avatar
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    Couldn't agree more. Switched from 1911 to Walther P99.

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    This is not a firearm choice or mechanics issue.
    This is 100% a training, or rather lack there of, issue.

    The gun owner was not trained in use of his sidearm.
    That lack of training is why he failed.

    This is why I strongly advocate people who with any degree of self defense use seriousness buy firearms of _any_ sort to become intimately familiar with their function and how to operate them, as to a high level.

    Simply taking it out of the box and loading a 'clip' (common term as used by such gun noobs/untrained persons) or placing ammo in it is not enough.
    A trained person knows that such firearms with external/frame safeties are to be turned off (to HOT) as part of the draw from holster in one smooth motion. This is a learned skill that can only be acquired with success as by training.

    This person clearly as based on results was not trained, and that error nearly cost him his life.

    1911 type format and/or handguns are not the only type to come with an external safety.
    Same applys to longguns such as shotguns and rifles too, which people in modern cases past have also like this guy been caught short for exact same reason.

    In one case last year a man and his adult son were disarmed at the mans front door by a home invader as he brought to bear a shotgun only to fail because he did not know how to unset the safety. The BG wrenched the gun by the barrel from the mans hands, turned it on him and his son, unset the safety and fired upon them both killing the man and gravely wounding he son. This too was featured here at DC.com.

    Train.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #6
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    Janq - very much agreed, and I realize that there are plenty of people who are very proficient (and deadly) with pistols that have external safeties. For ME, they are an unnecessary hindrance that COULD cause problems (though training can certainly reduce this chance to next to nil), and I therefore stay away from them. I train regularly, and have been forced to carry a "safety equipped" pistol (the M9) quite a bit - in that case, I just carried it safety-off (remember, this is a traditional DA pistol) and drove on. Were I forced to carry an SA pistol, you'd better believe I'd train to the point of obsession to overcome the issues inherent with external safeties.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Training training training. It's a good reminder folks. Don't let it be you.
    Yes. Excellent reminder.

    And yet, even training cannot cure all. When the chips are down, it's hard to know exactly how a person is going to perform. This is the reason I have opted to not have external safeties on my carry firearms. Whatever training I might to through, no matter how ingrained I have been able to make the "motions," I simply don't want to get caught in such a position of failing to flip the safety when that loss of time could mean the death of me. Sure. It can be claimed it's a "100% training" issue. But then, the firearm is known as "the great equalizer," that one tool the masses can avail themselves of because it doesn't require years of training, dramatic physical prowess, or even a complicated set of procedures in order to operate. Those who can put in the training to such a level, peachy. Those who can't, or who simply prefer not to have such safeties and risk them getting in the way in a moment of panic or stress, that's fine too. Everyone's different. And that's the beauty of the firearm, as it can accommodate all sorts. That's a good thing, and it shouldn't be an opportunity to claim "training failure."
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Senior Member Array jeephipwr's Avatar
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    A lot of IDPA and USPSA shooters shoot 1911s and others with external safeties. It is important to practice, practicie and practice with your SD gun. So that moving that safety and keeping your finger off the trigger (until ready to fire) is almost 2nd nature to you.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yep. ^^

    For those who are well proficient (and not just aware of how the gun works as on paper) in handling of 1911s in specific getting a proper grip to deactivate the grip safety AND thumbing off the frame safety are as second nature in functional use as is to us toggling the trigger to result in BOOM and recoil.

    No time right now but later today I plan to post a thread about an event that I witnessed directly this past Saturday of a shooter that I'd offered to assist while I was at a public range to train and running myself through various drills.

    It cannot be emphasized enough that if you are going to exercise your right to keep and bear arms then you very well be darn sure you are _trained_ in how to properly, safely and with purposeful function use said devices and tools.
    Sooo many outright unsafe people out there walking around wearing guns on their person...As I directly witnessed with my own eyes as in the lane to my direct left.

    This is important people. Train and by that alone become proficient.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I carry a 1911,and train weekly ,every time I draw and doubletap or triple tap etc.safety is engaged and reholstered everytime I draw safety is disengaged,I shoot enough that it's second nature without even thinking about muscle memory sweeps the safety off,People that don't wanta invest the time need to stick with point and shoot type handguns
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  12. #11
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    Did you guys check out this thread? http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-shooting.html
    Interesting incident (though I am the first to admit that it is just ONE incident) that highlights a problem with a thumb safety unrelated to "forgetting" to take it off, and a problem with a grip safety - both in the same incident. Note that neither of these problems could have been solved (as they occurred) by more or better training - they are inherent to the devices and cannot be worked around.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yep I saw that item this morning.

    Also keep in mind though that as by the victims own assessment in his statement, his hands were hit due to proximity to his attacker and his own attempt to retain a sidearm that he'd removed and placed at his chest/stomach.
    The conditions of that specific event do not well support your theory/assertion about external safeties.

    But at the same time I do not disagree with you in that external mechanical safeties do real world add increased odds of operator failure as under less than optimal handling conditions.

    Still though the vast majority of shootings do not involve persons hands being shot/disabled as this mans was from the link you provide.

    That thread to me as I read it this morning does though very much support and show the need for _training_ as related to functional use of a handgun should either hand singular be injured/disabled.
    As I read the part where he describes being shot through the palm of his left/off hand my first thought at that point was; 'Oh geez I hope he's trained in how to cycle a slide off his belt, shoe or some other solid catch object and/or to do a one handed reload...And I hope he's not running one of those low drag rear sights that offer no purchase to catch against in the event of a misfire.'

    Later when he goes on to state he gets shot again only this time in the right/strong hand I then thought to myself; 'I sure hop one of his buddies in that room can run a gun...The gun he is now unable to hold muchless aim with accuracy'.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #13
    Member Array KralBlbec's Avatar
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    A few years ago I participated in a SWAT type training exercise for a bunch of local cops. We got to be the bad guys and hostages. During one part I played a wounded hostage laying in the entrance and my mom was the bad guy. They gave her a training Glock with paint filled rounds and told her to hide anywhere in the building and make it up as she went along.

    She actually hid really well. Had a clear line of fire on the entire group and could have taken them out before they even knew where she was, except for one thing. It was a Glock, so no safety, but it wasnt cocked. By the time she figured that out she had already been seen. (Still managed to get it cocked and fired. Ironicly she missed all the other guys, but managed to hit me from 100ft down the hall watching.)

    I post this to point out its not just external safeties. Even the simple act of cocking it, which we all took for granted that she should know, was enough to mess her up. She has been around guns all her life and should have known better, but in the heat of the moment forgot even that basic step.

  15. #14
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    Off topic, but interesting, is the fact that people do, in fact, end up getting shot in the hands quite often. This has been my experience in force-on-force, and my observations have been backed up by others with tons of experience in the field. It stands to reason, of course - we are trained to "watch the hands," for one thing, and we tend to shoot at what we are looking at. We also tend to focus on the weapon under extreme stress, and weapons are almost invariably in our hands... Additionally, we tend to put our hands in front of us when in a serious encounter, either presenting our own weapons or trying to fend off an attackers. If we shoot at the torso (as most of us are taught, at least for the first shots) the hands are often in the way.

    This fact is yet more evidence (to my way of thinking) that SD firearms need to be as simple as possible; easy to fire and manipulate with the fewest amount of levers, knobs, buttons, and switches. Is the incident as described in the linked thread the "typical" incident? Certainly not (if there can even be said to be such a thing). Is it unreasonable to think that you may be using one hand, one injured hand, to run your gun? While I admit that it isn't the most likely scenario, I also submit that it's not unreasonable.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  16. #15
    Member Array KralBlbec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Yep I saw that item this morning.

    Also keep in mind though that as by the victims own assessment in his statement, his hands were hit due to proximity to his attacker and his own attempt to retain a sidearm that he'd removed and placed at his chest/stomach.
    The conditions of that specific event do not well support your theory/assertion about external safeties.

    But at the same time I do not disagree with you in that external mechanical safeties do real world add increased odds of operator failure as under less than optimal handling conditions.

    Still though the vast majority of shootings do not involve persons hands being shot/disabled as this mans was from the link you provide.

    That thread to me as I read it this morning does though very much support and show the need for _training_ as related to functional use of a handgun should either hand singular be injured/disabled.
    As I read the part where he describes being shot through the palm of his left/off hand my first thought at that point was; 'Oh geez I hope he's trained in how to cycle a slide off his belt, shoe or some other solid catch object and/or to do a one handed reload...And I hope he's not running one of those low drag rear sights that offer no purchase to catch against in the event of a misfire.'

    Later when he goes on to state he gets shot again only this time in the right/strong hand I then thought to myself; 'I sure hop one of his buddies in that room can run a gun...The gun he is now unable to hold muchless aim with accuracy'.

    - Janq
    I think you both have a point there. From another post in that thread.
    This is also one more small bit of anecdotal evidence supporting my opinion that external safeties (including grip safeties) are more trouble than they're worth on an SD pistol. In this case, the thumb safety (may have) tipped the BG off that a gun was coming into play, and the grip safety (may have) caused a failure at the worst possible moment. Of course, this is just one story about one incident, but it bears thinking about...
    Its debatable, but there could be a valid point about trying to stealthily disable a safety and have the audible click give you away. Anyway you cut it, that guy was lucky.

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