immigration bill - Page 11

immigration bill

This is a discussion on immigration bill within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by boatail Hopyard, Reading your posts makes it obvious that you have no problems with the " papers please " aspect of this, ...

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  1. #151
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    re: boattail

    Quote Originally Posted by boatail View Post
    Hopyard, Reading your posts makes it obvious that you have no problems with the " papers please " aspect of this, only that it applies to everyone. Well, to carry that thought forward, if a bank is robbed, should law enforcement stop EVERYBODY they encounter after leaving the bank and question them, or only the ones that fit the description of the robbers and were in the area at the time?
    Profiling is a fact of law enforcement, there are different degrees, and there are abuses also, but it's just another tool to help solve a crime. If your wife were harrassed by this, I would be the first to stand up with you to defend her. But I don't think that is going to be the case.
    No, you misunderstand the point. I indeed have a huge problem with "papers please," as do so many others here. All I was saying is that the only way for this law to be constitutional would be to go that route, as the constitution is silent on the papers please stuff except through perhaps the provisions of the 4th.

    What you all are failing to see is that this law creates an unequal burden on citizens similarly situated. It thus is a violation of the 14th.

    While you state that were my wife to be harassed by this you would be the first to stand up (thank you), no one can provide any reason to think that things like that won't happen. And, why should she be put at risk but not me? Why should Glockman10 not be put at risk but perhaps his wife would be ? (I think he said she is naturalized.)

    The reason no assurance of false arrest under this law can be given is because the law is deeply flawed and provides no definition of "reasonable suspicion."

    I strongly prefer that no US citizen be required to carry papers, including to get on an airplane. I have been on this earth well long enough to remember that the only thing required to board was your ticket-- unless you were leaving the country. I remember when a driver's license was about DRIVING, and not about identity. If you have misconstrued my comment as being in favor of "paper please" you haven't really been paying attention to what I write here.

    One of the most pernicious aspects of the illegal alien mess is that it is driving us all to transform our society in a way I think the majority really don't want it to go. There has been justified opposition to Real ID; there has been justified opposition to in-land immigration check points along highways; there is almost uniform belief that the illegal alien problem must be dealt with; and, I am not particularly in favor of amnesty except in the most dire of humanitarian need. That said, dumping on the rights of everyone and leaving the safety of everyone who happens to look different to the whim of what an individual officer might think is reasonable, is wrong. It isn't that I think most officers are not capable of being good judges on these matters. It is that I know, and innumerable stories in these forums testify to this, that many LEs will not use sound judgment--even really good ones will make errors. And then, as I have pointed out earlier, ICE is too inefficient as an organization to be relying on them for rapidly resolving disputed claims of US citizenship.

    The day will come when a US citizen wrongfully ensnared by this stupid law will have to file a habeas corpus petition in Federal Court to get out of Sheriff Joe's tent. Mark my words on that.

    And also, when that happens if this law is allowed to stand, there will be huge negative consequences for AZ.


  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Would most AZ citizens also be OK with being required to carry a passport or a birth certificate or some other proof of status? If not, why not?
    Actually, I believe most would to resolve this problem. I know I would comply with just about anything up to, but excluding, a tattoo on the forehead. This law is overwhelmingly supported by the citizens of Arizona (70+%), including many legal Mexicans. Many of those that are having a problem and virtually all of them you are seeing on TV are either activists or from somewhere other than Arizona.

    If the feds would build a damned fence, we wouldn't have to deal with this for very long. But instead, they do nothing....
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
    Actually, I believe most would to resolve this problem. I know I would comply with just about anything up to, but excluding, a tattoo on the forehead. This law is overwhelmingly supported by the citizens of Arizona (70+%), including many legal Mexicans. Many of those that are having a problem and virtually all of them you are seeing on TV are either activists or from somewhere other than Arizona.

    If the feds would build a damned fence, we wouldn't have to deal with this for very long. But instead, they do nothing....
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  4. #154
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    re: Bumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
    Actually, I believe most would to resolve this problem. I know I would comply with just about anything up to, but excluding, a tattoo on the forehead. This law is overwhelmingly supported by the citizens of Arizona (70+%), including many legal Mexicans. Many of those that are having a problem and virtually all of them you are seeing on TV are either activists or from somewhere other than Arizona.

    If the feds would build a damned fence, we wouldn't have to deal with this for very long. But instead, they do nothing....
    Agree on the fence. It should have happened long ago; along with a mine field.

    Well, while it goes a tad counter to my philosophy, I'd be willing to get a chip. Works for my dog (not intended as sarcasm) and there are some folks who have had themselves chipped.

    Something must be done, everyone agrees on that. The Feds have long ago dropped this ball. Everyone agrees on that.

    It seems to me that the main fault lies with employers. A few years ago I contracted with a "good" company to get a roof redone. The work got subcontracted. None of the roofers who actually showed to do the work appeared to me to be legal. And the boss kept talking about his property in Mexico. I wasn't happy.

    The problem though, I really don't know if those guys were legal or not. I had my suspicion, but not sufficient to get on the contractor.

    I have seen the very same problem with contractors hired to do work on Federal government buildings. The contract terms are explicit that the workers must be lawfully allowed to work. Yet, the folks who show to do the work, who knows? My guess, not legal.

    We are stuck as a society between a rock and a hard place and no one knows what to do. Sad, isn't it.

  5. #155
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    The only way to possibly solve this issue is going to be "painful".

    "bubba's ideas"

    1. Build a fence, wall, moat, whatever will make a enforceable border.
    2. No money transfers from the U.S. to Mexico.
    3. If a person is arrested, they must show proof of citizenship. Even if it's only a misdemeanor.
    4. Trying to open a bank account, proof of citizenship required.
    5. Applying for a job,same as above.
    6. Hospital admission same as above.
    7. Child born in the U.S. to illegal parent or parents, not a citizen.
    8. Applying for S.S.,disability,welfare,drivers lic., any interaction with a local,state or federal agency, proof of citizenship required.
    9. Once it's determined you are a illegal, you have no rights as a citizen.You will be treated humanly but thats all.
    10.You will be deported by busload or trainload to the border. It won't be pleasant but.... oh well.

    Aside from a few of my ideas I think these ideas are pretty much the Law. Just enforce them.

  6. #156
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    OK, just spent the day researching this law, and still yet, talking with several people who are legal residents[green cards] and full fledged citizens. I was amazed that they are supportive of this law. There take on it was that they came here because they love this country, and want to be a part of it. Further more, they all expressed a disappointment that our goverment was taking it so easy on those here illegally. My wife is from South Africa, and she said, you know, I never had rights until I came here, and now that I have them, I want to protect them, and all for ridding this country of those who are here illegally and draining this countrys resources. Now, she is a BOER, a descendent of the early Dutch settlers to SA, and being white would not have to worry about racial profiling based on skin color, but she does have a HEAVY Afrikans accent. But it does seem that even those of Hispanic orgin support this. After reading the law and speaking with people whom I felt it could hurt, I now feel very good about this, in the sense that I do not feel it will infringe or otherwise violate people it is not supposed to. Oh one more thing, SatCong, you are improving. Your ability to make complete sentences is getting better.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Alte View Post
    There is only one side - if you don't belong here, goodbye. I know old Sheriff Joe Arpiao is smiling:) Something had to be done since the federal govt won't do their job - God Bless Arizona.
    In agreement 1000% and more!
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  8. #158
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    I just spoke with some of my recently Americanized workers. They told me "yeah it's racist, but so what? I'm over here and my wife is over here, close the damn border."

    I don't support this law because I'm half hispanic and it makes me feel like ****. Would you want to be second class citizen? No. But you're not going to be, you're not in this situation. So who cares right?

    There has to be a better way. I know it's really taxing our resources but I know plenty of perfectly healthy black and white people (usually single mothers) who eat up our tax dollars and sit around all day.

    Why are we still screwing around in Afgan. instead of working on our borders and increasing our industrial trade?

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Bare with me, doing this on iPhone . Reading the bill is one thing, but what I think worries people is that if the proper checks and balances ar not inplace thru proper wording, it can be misused. Check out the thread about the man being arrested for open carry in a place where open carry is legal. Everyone here cries foul about that, but refuses to acknowlede that there may be misuse of the new law in AZ if not done correctly. Donot make the mistake that it will not effect you. Noone is saying that AZ is wrong for trying to take care of it's state, all some of us are saying is let's make sure it's done in a way that is legal, substainble, and does not violate the rights of legal
    residents based on apperance.

    Can anyone name me any law that cannot be misused or not properly enforced absolutely 100% of the time? Has no innocent person ever been mistakenly arrested for supposedly violating any other law? Is the enforcement of this law to be held to some unachievable standard for some reason?
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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis View Post
    I sure hope Texas takes this same approach. WTG Arizona!
    At least one Oklahoma legislator is already talking about copying the Arizona Bill even though we have a similar bill of our own. The Arizona law has more teeth than the Oklahoma version.
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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEW58 View Post
    Can anyone name me any law that cannot be misused or not properly enforced absolutely 100% of the time? Has no innocent person ever been mistakenly arrested for supposedly violating any other law?
    Of course not. But that type of broad statement does not relieve us of the responsibility to do our best, to make sure the language is specific and written in a manner that minimizes these occurences.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Of course not. But that type of broad statement does not relieve us of the responsibility to do our best, to make sure the language is specific and written in a manner that minimizes these occurences.
    I agree. But it seems like some are holding the enforcement of this particular law to some unattainable higher standard than any other law.
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  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEW58 View Post
    I agree. But it seems like some are holding the enforcement of this particular law to some unattainable higher standard than any other law.
    It may seem to appear that way, sometimes what we say is perceived differently by just reading the words without auditory feedback, so things can be taken wrong, and the ball gets rolling. I believe that people who question the fairness of any law or its legitimatesy should be applauded for trying to be objective and present a different perspective on issues. We would all do well to at least consider that there are 2 sides to every coin, and to at least entertain the idea. I did that today, and have come away believing that this may be an ok law. I never want to be a concrete thinker on any issue. Freedom did not begin with status quo thinking, but its ending there.

  14. #164
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    The only way to possibly solve this issue is going to be "painful".

    "bubba's ideas"

    ***pasted below for additional comments***

    Aside from a few of my ideas I think these ideas are pretty much the Law. Just enforce them.
    You were a little more verbose this time.

    I have previously mentioned a few items on this list, but this is more complete. I was thinking of making a more concise list for myself, but you saved me the trouble.

    1. Build a fence, wall, moat, whatever will make a enforceable border. I would love to see a giant double layer fence with electronic monitoring. This needs to be done for both borders. It will be very painful and expensive, but it can help our unemployment problem. Also we should move 50-75% of our military bases to along the borders and have the border manned and patrolled by our military. None of the remaining suggestions will help at all if we leave the borders open

    2. No money transfers from the U.S. to Mexico. I see your thinking on this, and I like the idea but this would be very difficult, if not impossible. There is a ton of legal business that requires transferring money, plus they would just transfer to another country first before going to Mexico.

    3. If a person is arrested, they must show proof of citizenship. Even if it's only a misdemeanor. This is something they should be doing already. If they aren't, how do they ID the people they bring in?

    4. Trying to open a bank account, proof of citizenship required. This is already required with the SS #

    5. Applying for a job,same as above. This is required with the Federal I-9 form. Or at least it used to be, I'm not positive. It's been a long time since I applied for a job.

    6. Hospital admission same as above. This is already required with the SS #

    7. Child born in the U.S. to illegal parent or parents, not a citizen. Agreed. Sorry, but this child will have to back to their home country with the parents.

    8. Applying for S.S.,disability,welfare,drivers lic., any interaction with a local,state or federal agency, proof of citizenship required. I'm pretty sure this is already required as well for SS, disability and welfare as part of the SS # check. If it isn't, whoever left that loophole open should be strung up by their heels.

    9. Once it's determined you are a illegal, you have no rights as a citizen.You will be treated humanly but thats all. You will be deported by busload or trainload to the border. It won't be pleasant but.... oh well. I merged your 9 and 10 because one is just a continuation of the other. I think we should swallow the expense of an armed escort to the border. I doubt we could just put them on a bus and trust them to leave.

    In addition, I believe this list does need a #10.

    10. Hefty fines for companies that knowingly hire illegal aliens or circumvent the citizenship tests and jail time for the individuals responsible for hiring them (meaning hiring managers, contractors, individual homeowners). Without removing the source of income, they will find a way into the country. Without real consequences, many businesses will continue to profit from illegal labor.
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  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    As for cracking down on the people that hire them...fat chance of that happening. We have TYSON foods here. For those that dont know, Arkansas is one of the largest producers of chicken and hogs in the country...largely in part due to Tyson being here. They hire illegals, pay them cash, and they are a large part of their workforce.
    When someone rats them out, US Customs will do a token visit, slap them a fine and even deport some of them just for appearances sake. Two weeks later, the same people are back at the plant working. Some of them have been deported numerous times.

    Of course, they are getting paid cash. A legal citizen gets fed.tax and SS and state tax along with insurance and everything else. The illegal gets a check that is twice as big because they arent even in the system. Most of this they will send back home to their familys. We have trailers here with a few dozen illegals in them living like animals,the places are filthy. When their toilets stop up, they just resort to going outside, the places stink up the whole nieghborhood. I've been to some, I have seen it.
    The rest of your post is rather good, but this is complete nonsense.

    Why shouldn't we force Tyson to employ American citizens? That would certainly help our 10% unemployment.

    Why shouldn't we force Tyson to stop recruiting and busing illegal immigrants across the border to work below minimum wage?

    Why shouldn't we expect law enforcement to enforce the law?

    Immigrant reform must be looked at with the same mindset that one needs in order to kill an Ivy Plant. The employers are the root. The illegal immigrants are the vines.

    If you've every tried to kill an Ivy plant you know that you just can rip off the vines and expect the plant to stop growing. Similarly, you can't just cut the plant from the root and expect the vines to die. In order to get rid of an Ivy plant you must kill the root and rip out all the vines.
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