immigration bill

This is a discussion on immigration bill within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by morintp 7. Child born in the U.S. to illegal parent or parents, not a citizen. Agreed. Sorry, but this child will have ...

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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post

    7. Child born in the U.S. to illegal parent or parents, not a citizen. Agreed. Sorry, but this child will have to back to their home country with the parents.
    This would require a constitutional amendment. I'd love to see the political infighting on that one...
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  3. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    But it does seem that even those of Hispanic orgin support this. Oh one more thing, SatCong, you are improving. Your ability to make complete sentences is getting better.
    Most kind of you to say that, that made my day. You were right in one way, most the legal immigrates That I know support the law. How was that sentence?
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  4. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post
    You were a little more verbose this time.

    I have previously mentioned a few items on this list, but this is more complete. I was thinking of making a more concise list for myself, but you saved me the trouble.

    1. Build a fence, wall, moat, whatever will make a enforceable border. I would love to see a giant double layer fence with electronic monitoring. This needs to be done for both borders. It will be very painful and expensive, but it can help our unemployment problem. Also we should move 50-75% of our military bases to along the borders and have the border manned and patrolled by our military. None of the remaining suggestions will help at all if we leave the borders open

    2. No money transfers from the U.S. to Mexico. I see your thinking on this, and I like the idea but this would be very difficult, if not impossible. There is a ton of legal business that requires transferring money, plus they would just transfer to another country first before going to Mexico.

    3. If a person is arrested, they must show proof of citizenship. Even if it's only a misdemeanor. This is something they should be doing already. If they aren't, how do they ID the people they bring in?

    4. Trying to open a bank account, proof of citizenship required. This is already required with the SS #

    5. Applying for a job,same as above. This is required with the Federal I-9 form. Or at least it used to be, I'm not positive. It's been a long time since I applied for a job.

    6. Hospital admission same as above. This is already required with the SS #

    7. Child born in the U.S. to illegal parent or parents, not a citizen. Agreed. Sorry, but this child will have to back to their home country with the parents.

    8. Applying for S.S.,disability,welfare,drivers lic., any interaction with a local,state or federal agency, proof of citizenship required. I'm pretty sure this is already required as well for SS, disability and welfare as part of the SS # check. If it isn't, whoever left that loophole open should be strung up by their heels.

    9. Once it's determined you are a illegal, you have no rights as a citizen.You will be treated humanly but thats all. You will be deported by busload or trainload to the border. It won't be pleasant but.... oh well. I merged your 9 and 10 because one is just a continuation of the other. I think we should swallow the expense of an armed escort to the border. I doubt we could just put them on a bus and trust them to leave.

    In addition, I believe this list does need a #10.

    10. Hefty fines for companies that knowingly hire illegal aliens or circumvent the citizenship tests and jail time for the individuals responsible for hiring them (meaning hiring managers, contractors, individual homeowners). Without removing the source of income, they will find a way into the country. Without real consequences, many businesses will continue to profit from illegal labor.
    I appreciate your input and most of the modifications. My remaining questions would be. If so many things are linked to a S.S. number how is it that.
    A. A illegal can get a S.S. number
    B.Why without a S.S. number do illegals gain these privledges.

    What the hell does "verbose" mean, long winded?

  5. #169
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    I appreciate your input and most of the modifications. My remaining questions would be. If so many things are linked to a S.S. number how is it that.
    A. A illegal can get a S.S. number
    B.Why without a S.S. number do illegals gain these privledges.

    What the hell does "verbose" mean, long winded?
    In answer to your first question, some illegals gain stolen SS#'s. At the hospitals, I believe that they will treat an illegal without a SS# to satisfy the bleeding hearts. As far as social services go, I don't know how they are getting benefits unless they have a stolen SS#. Either way, there needs to be better verification of citizenship at any place illegal aliens get healthcare, social services, employment.

    It is my opinion that without doing all 10 thing in the list that there will be a desire and/or a means for illegals to gain entry and remain. Without income, social services, and health care they will have two choices. A life of overt crime or deportation. I say overt crime, because they are already committing a crime by being here.

    Yes, long winded is a good definition for verbose. I only mentioned it because earlier you had mentioned that your posts were generally more brief.
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  6. #170
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    Some misinformation must be addressed

    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post
    3. If a person is arrested, they must show proof of citizenship. Even if it's only a misdemeanor. This is something they should be doing already. If they aren't, how do they ID the people they bring in?
    Presently the DL is used for ID. DLs may (depending on how state's implement their issuance) be an indication that someone is in the US lawfully, but they are not proof citizenship. Proof of citizenship comes in the form of a Passport. Heretofore it has never been required of US citizens that they carry passports around while in the US. The AZ law changes that, but only for those who look different or sound different.

    So, when someone is arrested it is one thing to inquire about who the person is-- a DL will do as will a State ID, it is quite another to inquire about citizenship where really only a passport or perhaps a naturalization certificate would do.

    And then---- there are many natural born Americans who for one reason or another lack these documents and can not obtain them. Things may work right for 99 out of 100 people, but there will be problems for some small number. I had a boss once who was a WWII veteran, and native born US citizen. Somewhere along the way of a long life he lost his birth certificate. It turned out the building that housed his original birth certificate burned to the ground after WWII. When he needed to get a passport for travel outside the US he had an extremely difficult time. The point being that you could be a US citizen and not be able to produce a birth certificate for reasons beyond your control. And then, what about the many people who have lived with very messy families, where papers disappear, no one is quite sure who the parents or guardians or custodians are.

    We have never before asked citizens to have papers while within the US; but AZ's new law will break that mold and move us in a direction which most of the participants here have already, in other threads, objected to. Papers please and a system of internal passports.

    4. Trying to open a bank account, proof of citizenship required. This is already required with the SS #
    Wrong. Social Security cards are issued to non-citizens. Even students here in the US temporarily on student visas, but who works even only for the school that they attend, needs a social security card. They are readily issued to non-citizens. There is no linkage between possession of a social security card and
    citizenship.

    Moreover, non-citizens open bank accounts all the time. And US citizens often have bank accounts in other countries as well.

    Illegals probably don't open bank accounts, but certainly you don't need to be a US citizen to have a bank account.

    5. Applying for a job,same as above. This is required with the Federal I-9 form. Or at least it used to be, I'm not positive. It's been a long time since I applied for a job.
    You need papers to apply for a job, but you do not need to be a citizen of the US. In fact, except for employment by the US Government, it is illegal to deny employment to a non-citizen unless the job involves national security.


    6. Hospital admission same as above. This is already required with the SS #
    If this were true no one would be complaining about all the free medical care illegals get at our hospitals. And if we implemented such a policy and didn't treat ill people we would be barbarians.

    7. Child born in the U.S. to illegal parent or parents, not a citizen. Agreed. Sorry, but this child will have to back to their home country with the parents.
    Maybe a good idea, maybe not, but presently The Constitution defines a citizen in certain terms, and unless you think the 13th and 14th amendments can be changed
    there is no way you can deny citizenship to someone born in the US.

    Now, what does happen and can happen, is that the child might be forced to leave the US if the parent is deported or otherwise forced to leave "voluntarily" and no guardian can be found for the child.


    8. Applying for S.S.,disability,welfare,drivers lic., any interaction with a local,state or federal agency, proof of citizenship required. I'm pretty sure this is already required as well for SS, disability and welfare as part of the SS # check. If it isn't, whoever left that loophole open should be strung up by their heels.
    Again, you do not need to be a US citizen for these things presently. Non citizen temporary visa status individuals do get drivers licenses. You may need to be in the country lawfully to obtain these things listed above --- and for those here unlawfully many of these benefits are currently denied. Hence, no change is required.

    9. Once it's determined you are a illegal, you have no rights as a citizen.
    Of course. So? You retain natural rights as a human being.

    In addition, I believe this list does need a #10.

    10. Hefty fines for companies that knowingly hire illegal aliens or circumvent the citizenship tests and jail time for the individuals responsible for hiring them (meaning hiring managers, contractors, individual homeowners).
    Bingo on number 10. The law of course is already on the books, just not enforced vigorously and with insufficient penalties.

  7. #171
    Senior Member Array CEW58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    It may seem to appear that way, sometimes what we say is perceived differently by just reading the words without auditory feedback, so things can be taken wrong, and the ball gets rolling. I believe that people who question the fairness of any law or its legitimatesy should be applauded for trying to be objective and present a different perspective on issues. We would all do well to at least consider that there are 2 sides to every coin, and to at least entertain the idea. I did that today, and have come away believing that this may be an ok law. I never want to be a concrete thinker on any issue. Freedom did not begin with status quo thinking, but its ending there.
    I think the necessity and implementation of any and all laws should be questioned. But there seems to be the perception (not just here but in the media) that if just one single innocent person is detained that this law is somehow a disaster. I was once detained by police because I fit the description of an armed robber and the car I was in also fit the description of the car used. After they realized I wasn't their guy I was released. But I didn't go around claiming that laws against armed robbery were unjust simply because I was briefly detained because of such laws.

    The Feds have had ample time and opportunity to address this issue but failed to do so, so now Arizona has decided it has to do something itself, and frankly, I can't blame them. Notice now that Arizona has acted Congress is suddenly talking about immigration again. Amazing how that happened...

    You're right, freedom didn't start with status quo thinking, but it didn't start by claiming the sky was falling either. If a lot of innocent people get rounded up you can bet an army of lawyers is standing by ready to sue and the law will be repealed or amended in some way.
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  8. #172
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    This would require a constitutional amendment. I'd love to see the political infighting on that one...
    I know, but I still think it's a good idea. Even though I may disagree with this law, my views on immigration are a bit draconian in some people's opinion.
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  9. #173
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    Ok, I'm calming down a little. My Border Patrol amigo was tell me "The law is no different then the INA, only change is locals will ask more questons. Most AZ depts ToT all contacts as it is. Az already has laws in place that cover smuggling and hiring."

  10. #174
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    In addition, I believe this list does need a #10.

    10. Hefty fines for companies that knowingly hire illegal aliens or circumvent the citizenship tests and jail time for the individuals responsible for hiring them (meaning hiring managers, contractors, individual homeowners). Without removing the source of income, they will find a way into the country. Without real consequences, many businesses will continue to profit from illegal labor.
    This should be #1 on the list, not #10!!

    There need to be real penalties for employing illegal aliens, I'm talking about heavy, heavy fines that will hurt. If the fines don't work the first time, loss of a buisness license would quickly follow for any future violations.

  11. #175
    Senior Member Array CEW58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i10casual View Post
    Ok, I'm calming down a little. My Border Patrol amigo was tell me "The law is no different then the INA, only change is locals will ask more questons. Most AZ depts ToT all contacts as it is. Az already has laws in place that cover smuggling and hiring."
    Glad to hear your feeling better. I think a lot of people were getting all excited before they should have.

    The text of the bill can be read here. I've read it and don't see anything worrisome in it.
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  12. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEW58 View Post
    I think the necessity and implementation of any and all laws should be questioned. But there seems to be the perception (not just here but in the media) that if just one single innocent person is detained that this law is somehow a disaster. I was once detained by police because I fit the description of an armed robber and the car I was in also fit the description of the car used. After they realized I wasn't their guy I was released. But I didn't go around claiming that laws against armed robbery were unjust simply because I was briefly detained because of such laws.

    The Feds have had ample time and opportunity to address this issue but failed to do so, so now Arizona has decided it has to do something itself, and frankly, I can't blame them. Notice now that Arizona has acted Congress is suddenly talking about immigration again. Amazing how that happened...

    You're right, freedom didn't start with status quo thinking, but it didn't start by claiming the sky was falling either. If a lot of innocent people get rounded up you can bet an army or lawyers is standing by ready to sue and the law will be repealed or amended in some way.
    Yep, one thing is for sure, you are right, the feds have started looking at the issue again, which is good. I hope it continues. After researching the issue for myself, it appears that the law has taken alot of its language from the original fed policy.

  13. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Yep, one thing is for sure, you are right, the feds have started looking at the issue again, which is good. I hope it continues. After researching the issue for myself, it appears that the law has taken alot of its language from the original fed policy.
    I just hope the Feds don't try to run another amnesty bill through. I have nothing against immigration. My ex-wife is an immigrant from Asia and she often complained about illegal immigrants not having to go through all the pain, time, and frustration that she went through to get here.

    All of us are immigrants or the sons and daughters of immigrants, but it needs to be done in an orderly and fair manner. To those who come here legally in search of a better life I say, "Welcome to The United States of America!"
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  14. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEW58 View Post
    I just hope the Feds don't try to run another amnesty bill through. I have nothing against immigration. My ex-wife is an immigrant from Asia and she often complained about illegal immigrants not having to go through all the pain, time, and frustration that she went through to get here.

    All of us are immigrants or the sons and daughters of immigrants, but it needs to be done in an orderly and fair manner. To those who come here legally in search of a better life I say, "Welcome to The United States of America!"
    Could not agree more on all points.

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    The rest of your post is rather good, but this is complete nonsense.

    Why shouldn't we force Tyson to employ American citizens? That would certainly help our 10% unemployment.

    Why shouldn't we force Tyson to stop recruiting and busing illegal immigrants across the border to work below minimum wage?

    Why shouldn't we expect law enforcement to enforce the law?

    Immigrant reform must be looked at with the same mindset that one needs in order to kill an Ivy Plant. The employers are the root. The illegal immigrants are the vines.

    If you've every tried to kill an Ivy plant you know that you just can rip off the vines and expect the plant to stop growing. Similarly,
    Whats nonsense about it? Here its a way of life.

    Why would you want to "force" an employer to hire American citizens? That would open up a can of worms that no one would like. We need less Federal Government intervention in private coporations, not more.

    We could "force" Tyson to stop by enforcing existing law. Put some teeth into the law. Violate it several times,get fined several times and be forced to cease and desist. Do that do a few businesses and it wouldn't be long until no one would hire an illegal.

    We should expect Law Enforcement to do its job. The problem with the Federal LEO's is that they are subject to the whims and fancys of the current administration and those that are appointed by it. Its not the guys on the street that are looking the other way, it the rank and file politicians that force them to swim uphill all the time.

    Immigrant reform must be looked at with the same mindset that one needs in order to kill an Ivy Plant. The employers are the root. The illegal immigrants are the vines.
    I look at the illegals not as vines but as fire ants. You start out with a little hill and you don't pay them much attention. Pretty soon your whole yard is covered with them and its just a matter of time until you get bit by the little critters. Eventually, its no longer YOUR yard...its THEIR yard. There is no easy way to get rid of them and you cant just get some of them, you have to get them all or you are just wasting your time.

    Eventually, you long for the days when you could walk across your yard without getting attacked.
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  16. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Presently the DL is used for ID. DLs may (depending on how state's implement their issuance) be an indication that someone is in the US lawfully, but they are not proof citizenship. Proof of citizenship comes in the form of a Passport. Heretofore it has never been required of US citizens that they carry passports around while in the US. The AZ law changes that, but only for those who look different or sound different.

    So, when someone is arrested it is one thing to inquire about who the person is-- a DL will do as will a State ID, it is quite another to inquire about citizenship where really only a passport or perhaps a naturalization certificate would do.

    And then---- there are many natural born Americans who for one reason or another lack these documents and can not obtain them. Things may work right for 99 out of 100 people, but there will be problems for some small number. I had a boss once who was a WWII veteran, and native born US citizen. Somewhere along the way of a long life he lost his birth certificate. It turned out the building that housed his original birth certificate burned to the ground after WWII. When he needed to get a passport for travel outside the US he had an extremely difficult time. The point being that you could be a US citizen and not be able to produce a birth certificate for reasons beyond your control. And then, what about the many people who have lived with very messy families, where papers disappear, no one is quite sure who the parents or guardians or custodians are.

    We have never before asked citizens to have papers while within the US; but AZ's new law will break that mold and move us in a direction which most of the participants here have already, in other threads, objected to. Papers please and a system of internal passports.



    Wrong. Social Security cards are issued to non-citizens. Even students here in the US temporarily on student visas, but who works even only for the school that they attend, needs a social security card. They are readily issued to non-citizens. There is no linkage between possession of a social security card and
    citizenship.

    Moreover, non-citizens open bank accounts all the time. And US citizens often have bank accounts in other countries as well.

    Illegals probably don't open bank accounts, but certainly you don't need to be a US citizen to have a bank account.



    You need papers to apply for a job, but you do not need to be a citizen of the US. In fact, except for employment by the US Government, it is illegal to deny employment to a non-citizen unless the job involves national security.



    If this were true no one would be complaining about all the free medical care illegals get at our hospitals. And if we implemented such a policy and didn't treat ill people we would be barbarians.



    Maybe a good idea, maybe not, but presently The Constitution defines a citizen in certain terms, and unless you think the 13th and 14th amendments can be changed
    there is no way you can deny citizenship to someone born in the US.

    Now, what does happen and can happen, is that the child might be forced to leave the US if the parent is deported or otherwise forced to leave "voluntarily" and no guardian can be found for the child.




    Again, you do not need to be a US citizen for these things presently. Non citizen temporary visa status individuals do get drivers licenses. You may need to be in the country lawfully to obtain these things listed above --- and for those here unlawfully many of these benefits are currently denied. Hence, no change is required.

    Of course. So? You retain natural rights as a human being.



    Bingo on number 10. The law of course is already on the books, just not enforced vigorously and with insufficient penalties.
    Well since the orginal list was mine I"d like to make a few comments on comments.
    If a law or rule works for 99 out of a hundred, that's good enough for me.
    S.S. cards should only be issued to citizens.
    You should have to be some form of a legal citizen to work here.
    I had to have a S.S. number to open any number of bank accounts. Something to do with The Patriot Act.
    Yes the 13th and 14 ammend. need to be changed.

    Hopyard,with all due respect I wonder what your feelings would be on this issue if you didn't so to speak "have a dog in this hunt"?

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