immigration bill - Page 15

immigration bill

This is a discussion on immigration bill within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; by MARTIN BARTLETT / KVUE News kvue.com Updated today at 6:23 PM Related: AUSTIN – State Rep. Leo Berman, R-Tyler, will introduce immigration legislation comparable ...

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  1. #211
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
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    Aide: Texas rep. plans immigration bill similar to Arizona law

    by MARTIN BARTLETT / KVUE News

    kvue.com

    Updated today at 6:23 PM

    Related:

    AUSTIN – State Rep. Leo Berman, R-Tyler, will introduce immigration legislation comparable to a law recently enacted in Arizona, according to an aide.

    Rep. Berman, who is traveling in Europe, authorized the aide to respond to KVUE News’ request for information regarding his plans for the 82nd Legislative Session which begins in January 2011.

    According to the aide, Berman said his bill will be similar to the Arizona law, specifically the provision which requires local law enforcement agencies in the state to check the immigration status of individuals who they suspect of being in the United States illegally.

    While the bill is expected to look a lot like the Arizona law, at least one group of Texas lawmakers notes that the Texas Legislature is very different that the Arizona Legislature.

    State Rep. Solomon Ortiz, D-Corpus Christi, serves as the treasurer of the Mexican American Legislative caucus and said Berman's bill will face a very different political reality here in Texas.

    “The public that knows Leo will know this isn’t the first time he’s filed related or similar legislation,” he said. "The Mexican American Legislative Caucus is almost a third of the Texas House, so the prospects of something like this passing the Texas House is very slim.”

    Ortiz’ prediction doesn’t please Texas voters like Kelly Clark who grew up in Arizona and now lives in Leander.

    “I'm an American. I pay taxes. I want people to know if there is somebody here that’s going to get paid to, basically, take money out of my mouth,” he said.

    Clark dismissed worries over possibly requiring local Texas law enforcement agencies to enforce federal immigration statutes.

    “I think law enforcement should be upholding all of it,” he said. “I don’t think the law should change from one location to another.”

    Other Texas voters, including Shakshi Kshatriya, a Houston-native who now lives in Austin, worry such a law would lead to racial profiling and violates the U.S. Constitution.

    “It really is just letting police pull over whomever they think is illegal and, actually, when you think about it, that is an outrage,” she said. “We have all these different, diverse groups of people. That’s going to be an insult on their own integrity.”

    The two leading candidates for Texas governor – incumbent Republican Rick Perry and Democrat Bill White, the former mayor of Houston – have declined to say if they would sign or veto such legislation if it ever reached their desk.

    Whatever the fate of Berman’s bill, lawmakers including Ortiz expect a fight over the legislation, especially as worries continue to simmer along the border, that cartel drug violence in Mexico will spill into Texas.

    “Nobody wants to see that happen, obviously, but the federal government obviously has an obligation to enforce federal laws and enforce immigration policy,” Ortiz said.
    Hope they do it.
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  2. #212
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    As I read the law, if you are in Arizona, and you commit a crime or a traffic violation (still a crime, by the way), it allows LEOs who have a reasonable belief (like the concept "probable cause") that you are not an American citizen to ask to see some ID (federal, state or local) showing you are here legally, or make a reasonable effort to confirm you are here legally. I suspect what will happen is what is happening with airport security theatre. Instead of asking people who are obviously of the ethnicity causing the problem, the LEOs will ask a lot of people who are obviously not of the ethnicity causing the problem, just so they won't be accused of "racial profiling". Happens to my wife all the time.

    But for those who worry about being asked for papers in Arizona, don't worry, all you have to do is not break the law.

    Oh, and both my wife and I have had to produce papers proving we were legally able to work in this country for every job since graduating college. And we are both of Northern European descent and our families have lived in this country for over 100 years. No reason people doing any other job can't be required to produce the same documentation.

    If the federal government won't do the functions that the states grant them powers to perform, it is then the duty of the states to take up those powers and perform those necessary functions to protect the citizens of the states.

  3. #213
    Member Array UnklFungus's Avatar
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    Instead of arguing based on media bias, here is the .pdf. These are the facts about it, good or bad.
    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
    “The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by UnklFungus
    If it is ok to disarm legal citizens to reduce crime, then doesn't it stand to disband the military to prevent war?

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I would charge you with the main 3 and not worry about the misdemeanor, knowing from experience, that it is usually dismissed in the process of pleading out in court. We are a commonwealth state also, and things are a little different here. But we have had an ID law as long as I have been on the job.
    Sometimes I think that is one of the countries biggest problems! If we'd just stop the pleading and dropping charges and ENFORCE the laws we have......
    Rick

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  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    Where in the world did you get that from?

    I tell you, the things people come up with...
    Mexico's Immigration Law: Let's Try It Here at Home, Monday, May 08, 2006, By J. Michael Waller

    Which parts of that do you think are not true?
    Smitty
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  6. #216
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    I am a 4th generation American. I am a son of Franklin. Close the border, seal it off, and hire more Border patrol. But you will not ask me to show you papers.

  7. #217
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Take a look here Becoming a Naturalized Mexican | Mexico Insight | Mexico Blogs

    I have friends who have been naturalized in Mexico. They can vote, they can own land anywhere they choose including the coastal areas. Even American citizens can purchase land on the coast they just have to create a trust. They can work in Mexican, etc.

    It is true that you need to speak Spanish, but the same is true here. When you are naturalized you take an exam in Spanish just like an immigrant here has to take an exam in English.

    Also, once you become a naturalized Mexican citizen you do have access to their social programs.

    I'm not sure about whether a naturalized Mexican citizen can hold an office.
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  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by i10casual View Post
    I am a 4th generation American. I am a son of Franklin. Close the border, seal it off, and hire more Border patrol. But you will not ask me to show you papers.

    That's the problem. The fed won't do this and the Border Patrol has their hands tied, remember the two agents who were arrested for shooting the smuggler?


    No one is going to have to show any more or less papers than they do already. Every time we have an encounter with law enforcement, we have to show ID, at their discretion.


    How else are we going to determine someone's immigration status?
    If we're going to prosecute illegal immigrants, we must have some means of identifying them as such.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  9. #219
    Member Array i10casual's Avatar
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    That was despicable. Sending BP agents to jail.
    The id thing is only a symptom of the larger issue I have a problem with. As a teen I learned if you don't carry ID the police will not be so nice to you. Who doesn't carry ID in a big city?

    But I am worried about the death of the 14th Amendment (section 1).
    What happened during the Bracero Act, the actions took during Eisenhower's Operation Wet Back scare the hell out of me. I only know how to be American. yeah even I have to laugh at the name...

    more about Operation wetback
    "The effort began in California and Arizona and coordinated 1075 Border Patrol agents, along with state and local police agencies, to mount an aggressive crackdown, going as far as police sweeps of Mexican-American neighborhoods and random stops and ID checks of "Mexican-looking" people in a region with many Native Americans and native Hispanics. In some cases, illegal immigrants were deported along with their American-born minor dependent children as is standard international practice. This was although the children were by current legal interpretation of the 14th amendment U.S. citizens."
    --García, Juan Ramon, Operation Wetback: The Mass Deportation of Mexican Undocumented Workers in 1954 --

  10. #220
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    I have to admit, after reading the bill and reading summaries of the bill, I don't understand what the problem is. People are implying that the bill says that citizens have to carry around their birth certificate (which honestly i dont mind anyways). They say this means cops will be pulling over people all over the place (more than they do now) to check immigration status. I don't see where either of those are true.
    Please correct me if any of the following is not true, but after reading a specific summary and comparing it to the bill, I believe the following to be correct:
    • During a lawful stop, directs law enforcement officers to determine immigration status of
    individuals who they reasonably suspect to be illegal aliens, and for all persons who are
    arrested. (§ 2(B), page 1).
    • Provides that persons who present any federal, state or local identification documents
    that require verification of lawful status (e.g., an Arizona driver’s license) when issued
    are presumed to be lawfully present. (§ 2(B), page 1)

    there are other things of course too, but that is telling me that if you are stopped by an leo, he may arrest you if he feels that you have no proof that you are a legal resident, such as a DL/ state ID (which you need to have anyways)
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  11. #221
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    No one is safe when the TX legislature is in session

    Quote Originally Posted by SatCong View Post
    [B]
    Related:

    AUSTIN – State Rep. Leo Berman, R-Tyler, will introduce immigration legislation comparable to a law recently enacted in Arizona, according to an aide.
    As an old curmudgeon once told me 35 years back, when I first moved here to TX, "no one is safe when the Texas legislature is in session."

    Thank G-d they meet only every other year. That needs to change.

    Once in 5 or 6 might do for the things that are absolutely needed.

    Texas has a rather unusual constitution. Almost nothing of substance can get passed without some sort of constitutional amendment voted on at an election. They couldn't even given seniors a property tax break without a constitutional amendment. Any legislation of the sort talked about here
    would be vigorously debated by the public here, before going to a vote. It won't get rammed through by a legislative body.

    In any case, the issue will likely be settled before the next session.

  12. #222
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    For Glockman10mm

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I only know what we enforce, or can enforce, if you know what I mean But we have had an ID law as long as I have been on the job.
    I tired to determine if the Supremes had ever spoken on the issue of a requirement to carry physical ID.

    I didn't get very far. The Hibbs case really only says that you must identify yourself. It seems silent on the issue of supporting documentation.

    I couldn't find the case I had in mind where they had (before Hibbs) ruled that you didn't need a physical ID on your person. Need to look some more. In any case, if it exists, I don't think Hibbs overturned that.

    I did find a Tennessee Supreme Court case that said Tennessee could not require its residents to keep a physical ID on their persons. Of course that doesn't apply to KY or anywhere else.

    The Hibbs vote was 5:4 and the dissent had some rather scathing words for what the majority did-- but of course the majority opinion is law.

    I continue to find Lindsey Graham's comment interesting, given that he is an experienced Judge Advocate, was a lead "prosecutor" of the Clinton impeachment, and generally has a pretty sharp interpretive mind when it comes to constitutional issues. I'd also like to hear what if anything Bob Barr has to say, given that he is a conservative-libertarian former US Congressman from Georgia yet worked for the ACLU.

    It may well be that the whole set of issues surrounding any legislated obligation to carry physical ID is unsettled law. I don't know.

    Again, maybe some real lawyer who knows this jurisprudence will speak up here. I hope.

  13. #223
    Member Array UnklFungus's Avatar
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    Well, it looks like it is starting to work!!!!
    Illegal Immigrants Leaving Arizona Over New Law - CBS News

    (AP) Many of the cars that once stopped in the Home Depot parking lot to pick up day laborers to hang drywall or do landscaping now just drive on by.

    Arizona's sweeping immigration bill allows police to arrest illegal immigrant day laborers seeking work on the street or anyone trying to hire them. It won't take effect until summer but it is already having an effect on the state's underground economy.

    "Nobody wants to pick us up," Julio Loyola Diaz says in Spanish as he and dozens of other men wait under the shade of palo verde trees and lean against a low brick wall outside the east Phoenix home improvement store.

    Many day laborers like Diaz say they will leave Arizona because of the law, which also makes it a state crime to be in the U.S. illegally and directs police to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants.

    Supporters of the law hope it creates jobs for thousands of Americans.

    "We want to drive day labor away," says Republican Rep. John Kavanagh, one of the law's sponsors.

    An estimated 100,000 illegal immigrants have left Arizona in the past two years as it cracked down on illegal immigration and its economy was especially hard hit by the Great Recession. A Department of Homeland Security report on illegal immigrants estimates Arizona's illegal immigrant population peaked in 2008 at 560,000, and a year later dipped to 460,000.
    “The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”

    Patrick Henry
    Quote Originally Posted by UnklFungus
    If it is ok to disarm legal citizens to reduce crime, then doesn't it stand to disband the military to prevent war?

  14. #224
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    re: friesepferd

    Quote Originally Posted by friesepferd View Post
    but that is telling me that if you are stopped by an leo, he may arrest you if he feels that you have no proof that you are a legal resident, such as a DL/ state ID (which you need to have anyways)
    Why would you think the person needs arresting? People are cited all the time, not arrested, for driving without a DL. All they need to do is show up at municipal court the next day or two with license in hand and the ticket will almost always get dismissed.


    Since when do citizens need papers? As I have posted above, my mother (and I'll add dad and grandparents) lived on this earth here in the US for 100 + years between them. Before the 1980s the only paper any of them had was a birth certificate or naturalization certificate kept in a safe deposit box, not on their person. No one was required to carry anything on their person. That is called freedom.

    Even as recently as the 1990s you needed no papers whatsoever for domestic travel unless you happened to be the driver of the vehicle.

    And even the Hibbs case in Colorado from the first decade of the 21st century only places a requirement that you identify yourself verbally and truthfully; no mention is made of papers within the ruling itself. And even for that minor "tweak" to existing law there was a 5/4 split decision and vigorous if not heated dissent by the other justices.

    Quite apart from any issue of profiling, harassment etc., if you don't understand the danger that a papers please approach to law enforcement poses to democracy and to freedom, you should learn some history of the mid-20th century.

    There are broader issues in play here than catching illegal aliens. Some want to toss our constitution and our freedom into the gutter to achieve an end. That is the wrong approach. We will lose everything as a free people if we continue down this path.

  15. #225
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    re: gasmitty

    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Read the bill and satisfy yourselves. Predictions of wholesale "may I see your papers, please" LE stops are greatly exaggerated. A legitimate U.S. driver's license will satisfy most LE requests.
    As pointed out by others in a parallel thread on the same topic, a DL can't do the job.

    I hate to tell you how common it is for foreign students to legally obtain a DL, then after graduation, to not leave the country. This is especially a problem not with Mexican and Latin American students, but with Middle Eastern and Asian students.

    They can get jobs illegally, and do, and remain here illegally, and do, and there is nothing about looking at their DL that would give one piece of info about the fact that they have remained here in violation of the terms of their student visa-- to leave on graduation.

    So, if AZ is serious that it wants to enforce immigration law as opposed to enforcing immigration law against those of Latin American origin only, it needs to require documentation other than the DL. And therein lies the flaw. How do you know who you need to ask for documentation beyond the DL? And what will that be? And how will you know when to arrest someone and not.

    These complexities are the reason Federal Law requires agreements between local government and the Fed before it will allow local police to engage in immigration law enforcement. These are the reasons why special training is needed.

    If you look at and read the entirety of the suit filed yesterday by an AZ cop seeking an injunction against this new law, you will see that he cites the portion of the USC which prohibits states from doing what AZ has just done.

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