immigration bill - Page 6

immigration bill

This is a discussion on immigration bill within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf Here's the bill in case anyone wants to argue about the facts....

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  1. #76
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    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

    Here's the bill in case anyone wants to argue about the facts.


  2. #77
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    I just read it and again...I don't see where the sky is falling..

    I can already stop someone if they violate a traffic law..I can contact ICE and check the status of the people in the car if I believe that they are illegals. I can ask them(ICE) if they want to come get them...

    Here is where the change is..if they say no,(and they ususally do) I can arrest them myself, transport them to a jail and after the trespass is handled the jail releases them to ICE for deportation.

    So just how is the sky falling??

    When it mentions inquiring about your legal status it refers to contacting ICE and inquiring about it.

    No where in the law do I see any language about mandatory identication..someone show that to me please...
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post
    This means that they now will be stopping tons of people for no reason other than to check their ID. They now have the right to stop almost everyone and anyone they want and request their papers. In reality, they probably could check anyone's ID on a whim now if they want to start checking for illegal Europeans, Asians, and Africans too. This isn't about stopping people who did something wrong. This is about stopping everyone to look for the few (and it is a relative few in comparison to the legal population) who did something wrong.

    I guess if you're willing to give up some of your freedoms to get those dang illegals out, it's all good.
    You need to get your facts straight because this is absolutely wrong. Law enforcement still needs probable cause to question you about immigration status. They not going to be stopping every Mexican that's out on the street minding his own business to ask immigration questions. And, contrary to popular belief, there is very little "profiling" going on here by law enforcement. They don't have to profile. It's simply a matter of enforcing existing laws, including traffic laws. When you make a stop, and you suspect the person may be here illegally, you question them. When the person stopped has a valid driver's license, insurance and registration (which most illegals do not have) most will not be under further scrutiny.


    Quote Originally Posted by Headsh0t View Post
    Has anyone here actually read the bill?
    It appears very few have. I can understand people who are so far away from the border are upset about it. Most have no idea that there even is a problem. But here in Arizona, the majority of our crime is committed by illegal aliens. The number of pedophiles and sexual predators coming over here, from Mexico, is shocking. The number of murders, robberies, burglaries are largely committed by illegals. They are one of the prime reason that our auto insurance and taxes are so high. Need to go to the emergency room? Good luck, they are all clogged with illegals with a stuffy nose. Identification theft? It is over the top here and largely attributed to illegals. We have a reason to want them to go home and not come back unless they do it according to the law.

    Those that say they won't be coming to Arizona because of this law, I invite you to live up to your promise. It is my opinion, however, that when our crime rate goes down and people feel safer, many that used to come here will come back. I actually heard a "winter visitor" say that if Arizona passed constitutional concealed carry that they were going to sell their "winter home" and go elsewhere. I'm pretty sure nobody will miss them. "Blood will flow in the streets!" they are all yelling. They are no more misinformed than those crying about our immigration bill. And, since they are deciding to get serious about the problem of illegal immigration, I am actually considering staying here instead of leaving the state. So, you see, the state wins some, and loses some no matter what it does....
    Bumper
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  4. #79
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    Once again, proof why Bumper is the "leader" here, very wise man.


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  5. #80
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    I have no desire here for any American, whether native born immigrant, to have any problems due to skin color. But we do need to get the problem with illegal immigration under control. It would be best done by the federal government, but unfortunately, the most that our leaders want to do is to pass a "Comprehensive Immigration Bill", that would provide amnesty to the millions of illegals already here. The reason? They want the millions of new voters, who will primarily vote for the current majority party. Since the feds won't do it, I think that the border states should take the initiative and take care of the problem, since they are the states with the bulk of the problems. Now, if an American of Mexican descent is stopped, I would think that the items that are normally kept in my wallet would settle the problem-my OL, and my social security card. I could be mistaken, but having a social security card shows a legal authority to work here. And as far as illegal immigrants from Ireland, and other European countries are concerned, while I don't doubt that they exists, the numbers are nowhere near those from Mexico. And those who are here do not tend to place the same demands and strain on our social and legal systems as those by Mexican illegals. But I agree that the laws apply to all. Also, I firmly agree that we need to be holding those who knowingly hire illegals from any country in violation of the law, and subjecting them to stiff fines and jail time. Taking away employment as an incentive may reduce the numbers.
    "We are the people our parents warned us about!" J. Buffett

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Here in Kentucky we have a real problem with illegal immigrants from Mexico. They migrate here to work on the horse farms and have taken over many parts of the communitys. For the most part they are friendly and pose no real threat, but are a nusiance in other ways. They drink excessivly, and are often disruptive, drive with no insurrance or DL. They try to live pretty much the way they lived in Mexico. Domestic violence is also a problem, because it is not frowned upon where they come from. They make up about 20% of the jail population. I know this because I deal with them in an LEO capacity. I strongly support reform to reverse this trend, however it must be done without violating the rights of legal residents of this country. We must demand the federal goverment hold up to its responsibility to protect this country and enforce existing law, not encourage new laws that encroach on the law abiding citizen or legal residents of this country. To be for this would be hypocritic on our part. Just say no to concrete thinking.
    The problem is that we have been demanding just that..for years now, and NOTHING has been done. Neither by republicans nor democrats. They, as a group, have both sucked equally in that respect. The democrats said that health care had to be passed NOW, and the bill may not be perfect, we'll fix it later, but pass it NOW! Maybe the same logic applies here, do something now, and iron out the bugs later. I don't know, but the road we've been on is not sustainable in the long run. We need that proverbial "Change" I keep hearing about.
    P.S. I really wish you had'nt made that Hitler comment in your earlier post, it was'nt called for.
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  7. #82
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    Here is a different take on it.

    We did a sting on one of our forest parks,well known to the people around here. In the last several years, it has been completed taken over by illegals that have been camping there. Since the policy is that no one can camp in one spot for more than two weeks, they simply swap spots with their friends.

    The "sting" came about as a result of one of the few U.S. Forest Service LEO's getting jumped by a couple of illegals when he went to investigate a loud noise complaint at the campsite. The illegals were acting all drunk and acting like fools.

    Being drunk and stupid, one of them, whacked our LEO in the head with a stick and the fight was on. It only stopped when he pulled his handgun and threatened to shoot anyone near him. He did manage to put two in the hospital. What if that whack to the head killed him? We would have never found out who did it. This park is in a very remote area of the county.

    So at his request, some of our local LEO's set up a roadblock to check I.D.'s. We arrested over 100 people that day and towed many vehicles for no DL,registration,proof of of insurance. Many tickets were issued for no seat belt or equipment violations. Some vans designed for no more than 7 or 8 at the most were observed to have 15-20 people stuffed in them.

    The parks have basic restroom facilites, with a couple of shower heads. These park is meant to be a seasonal park, it was not meant or designed for year round occupancy. These folks have trashed the park, overloaded the trash system that is in use there, turned the campsites into filthy stinking spots and run the local population completly out. What was once a secluded pristine spot know for its beauty is now just another haven for illegals.

    We get lots of complaints about it. We do extra patrols on it. It has become a bothersome thing, whereas before it was never an issue. A local hangout is no more, as people refuse to go there and put their lives in jeopardy.

    FWIW, I arrested the first confirmed MS13 gangster in the county. He was wanted for murder somewhere in Texas. Unknown to me at the time, I just hooked him up and had him transported to the jail. It wasnt until the next shift when two US Marshals wanted to speak to me about what transpired. They took him and that was the end of that.

    The Border Patrol wont assist us unless there are at least 40 of them to deport. The paperwork involved is like most governmnet function...it is totally ridiculous and noth worth the time or effort.

    As for cracking down on the people that hire them...fat chance of that happening. We have TYSON foods here. For those that dont know, Arkansas is one of the largest producers of chicken and hogs in the country...largely in part due to Tyson being here. They hire illegals, pay them cash, and they are a large part of their workforce.
    When someone rats them out, US Customs will do a token visit, slap them a fine and even deport some of them just for appearances sake. Two weeks later, the same people are back at the plant working. Some of them have been deported numerous times.

    Of course, they are getting paid cash. A legal citizen gets fed.tax and SS and state tax along with insurance and everything else. The illegal gets a check that is twice as big because they arent even in the system. Most of this they will send back home to their familys. We have trailers here with a few dozen illegals in them living like animals,the places are filthy. When their toilets stop up, they just resort to going outside, the places stink up the whole nieghborhood. I've been to some, I have seen it.

    Its out of control and something needs to be done. The Feds have pretty much ignored it and will continue to. The states are getting fed up with it and they need to do something.

    I dont know what the perfect solution is, I doubt that there is even one. One thing I know for sure...something needs to be done. We need to get our parks back, we need to crack down on the people that are welll connected that hire them and we need to get it back to where our own citizens dont fear what they see.

    It's out of balance. My grandkids will never know what it is like to go to a park without fearing for their lives, or be able to see trash receptacles that arent overflowing or grafitti painted all over the pavilions.

    Now that Arizona is trying to do something, they get flack from the people that live in the big crystal mansions that get driven to work everyday in a limousine.People that are so out of touch with reality that they have no real idea of life as most of us know it.

    And for what? Coming up with legislation to protect themselves?

    Brilliant. Absolutley brilliant.
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  8. #83
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post
    So who are the illegals? Are they all wearing signs that will make it easy to round them all up? I doubt it. This means that they now will be stopping tons of people for no reason other than to check their ID. .
    At least read a short synopsis of the bill before posting.

  9. #84
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Headsh0t View Post
    Has anyone here actually read the bill?
    Apparently not.

  10. #85
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Here in Kentucky we have a real problem with illegal immigrants from Mexico. They migrate here to work on the horse farms and have taken over many parts of the communitys. For the most part they are friendly and pose no real threat, but are a nusiance in other ways. They drink excessivly, and are often disruptive, drive with no insurrance or DL. They try to live pretty much the way they lived in Mexico. Domestic violence is also a problem, because it is not frowned upon where they come from. They make up about 20% of the jail population. I know this because I deal with them in an LEO capacity. I strongly support reform to reverse this trend, however it must be done without violating the rights of legal residents of this country. We must demand the federal goverment hold up to its responsibility to protect this country and enforce existing law, not encourage new laws that encroach on the law abiding citizen or legal residents of this country. To be for this would be hypocritic on our part. Just say no to concrete thinking.
    Similar troubles here in my community. We just had an off-the-books clean out of them in the last two weeks. If people think it is just state governments that are tired of the illegals, they are much mistaken. And if they think that all the actions being taken are on the record they are much mistaken as well.

  11. #86
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    re: gasmitty-- unequal protection/ unequal burden

    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    That is complete and utter speculation on your part. I've spent time with Border Patrol and local county LEOs in training courses out here in the desert, and the "illegal immigrant" problem is clearly recognized as extending beyond transgressors from south of the border. AZ seems to be a magnet for illegals from all over, including white folks from Canada and Europe. We discussed "racial profiling", and while there is no doubt that that occurs between the ears, if you think for a minute that illegals other than Hispanics get a free pass, you are sorely mistaken.

    You were holding a piece of high ground with your arguments, but you lost it with this post.
    What specifically did I write is nonsense? Do you really expect anyone to believe that short of random stops, or checkpoints for everyone, there is anyway to accomplish what is desired without putting an unequal burden on US Citizens who happen to look different?

    Again, illegal Mr. McGuiness is not going to be asked for papers while legal Mr. Cedeno will be. That is just human nature.

    And worse, if the LEOs don't do that, they face lawsuits from their own citizens. That provision in the present misguided law hasn't been kicked around here and discussed in any way, but it will surely damage the budgets of at least some departments.

    There is a constitutional way to accomplish what AZ wants to accomplish. Asking for the same types of proof of status from everyone instead of using the "reasonable suspicion" clause built into the present AZ law. There is no way "reasonable suspicion" is going to work as the standard on this one.

    Of course if the legislators had proposed random paper checks for everyone this bill wouldn't have passed because everyone would have been screaming about "papers please."

    It is a matter of whose ox is being gored, isn't it?

    I want to note my objection to this law has nothing to do with any particular sympathy for illegal aliens of any origin. I think the illegal alien problem has been out of control for decades and is larger than the 12 million figure usually offered up. But the old saying two wrongs don't make a right applies. Just because illegal aliens are doing something wrong, doesn't mean society can violate the rights of native born US citizens or of naturalized citizens to solve the illegal problem. The solutions must fall within what is legally permissible, and this law is unconstitutional on its face.

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    re: maddyfish

    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    Similar troubles here in my community. We just had an off-the-books clean out of them in the last two weeks. If people think it is just state governments that are tired of the illegals, they are much mistaken. And if they think that all the actions being taken are on the record they are much mistaken as well.
    I have no idea what "an off the books clean out" means, but when combined with your next remark, " if you think that all the actions being taken are on the record... mistaken as well," it sounds like you know of some unlawful activity going on where you are.

    Law enforcement must happen on the books or it is illegal. Hiding events is illegal. Altering records is illegal. Harassing people is illegal. I hope you get the point for your own sake, just in case you actually meant to say what you wrote.

  13. #88
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    Just because illegal aliens are doing something wrong, doesn't mean society can violate the rights of native born US citizens or of naturalized citizens to solve the illegal problem. The solutions must fall within what is legally permissible, and this law is unconstitutional on its face.
    Got any ideas of how to make it better?
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
    They don't have to profile. It's simply a matter of enforcing existing laws, including traffic laws. When you make a stop, and you suspect the person may be here illegally, you question them. When the person stopped has a valid driver's license, insurance and registration (which most illegals do not have) most will not be under further scrutiny.
    If you read all of my posts in this thread, you'll see that this is pretty much what I want. We have a ton of laws to fight illegal immigration. Why don't we enforce the ones already on the books? Why pass a law that has such a large potential for abuse? Why are business owners allowed to get away with hiring illegals? Until they face consequences, they will continue to hire illegals and the problem will never go away. Take away illegal alien's source of income, and they will not come. You can pass all of the laws you want, but as long as they have a way to make money, they will keep coming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I have no idea what "an off the books clean out" means, but when combined with your next remark, " if you think that all the actions being taken are on the record... mistaken as well," it sounds like you know of some unlawful activity going on where you are.

    Law enforcement must happen on the books or it is illegal. Hiding events is illegal. Altering records is illegal. Harassing people is illegal. I hope you get the point for your own sake, just in case you actually meant to say what you wrote.
    It is what happens when people like you do not allow existing laws, or in the case of the AZ law, new laws to be enforced.
    I see the AZ law as PROTECTING illegals. It puts them on the record, instead of what has been going on off the record.

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