immigration bill

[Hopyard]

Here is a different take on it.

We did a sting on one of our forest parks,well known to the people around here. In the last several years, it has been completed taken over by illegals that have been camping there. Since the policy is that no one can camp in one spot for more than two weeks, they simply swap spots with their friends.

The "sting" came about as a result of one of the few U.S. Forest Service LEO's getting jumped by a couple of illegals when he went to investigate a loud noise complaint at the campsite. The illegals were acting all drunk and acting like fools.

Being drunk and stupid, one of them, whacked our LEO in the head with a stick and the fight was on. It only stopped when he pulled his handgun and threatened to shoot anyone near him. He did manage to put two in the hospital. What if that whack to the head killed him? We would have never found out who did it. This park is in a very remote area of the county.

So at his request, some of our local LEO's set up a roadblock to check I.D.'s. We arrested over 100 people that day and towed many vehicles for no DL,registration,proof of of insurance. Many tickets were issued for no seat belt or equipment violations. Some vans designed for no more than 7 or 8 at the most were observed to have 15-20 people stuffed in them.

The parks have basic restroom facilites, with a couple of shower heads. These park is meant to be a seasonal park, it was not meant or designed for year round occupancy. These folks have trashed the park, overloaded the trash system that is in use there, turned the campsites into filthy stinking spots and run the local population completly out. What was once a secluded pristine spot know for its beauty is now just another haven for illegals.

We get lots of complaints about it. We do extra patrols on it. It has become a bothersome thing, whereas before it was never an issue. A local hangout is no more, as people refuse to go there and put their lives in jeopardy.

FWIW, I arrested the first confirmed MS13 gangster in the county. He was wanted for murder somewhere in Texas. Unknown to me at the time, I just hooked him up and had him transported to the jail. It wasnt until the next shift when two US Marshals wanted to speak to me about what transpired. They took him and that was the end of that.

The Border Patrol wont assist us unless there are at least 40 of them to deport. The paperwork involved is like most governmnet function...it is totally ridiculous and noth worth the time or effort.

As for cracking down on the people that hire them...fat chance of that happening. We have TYSON foods here. For those that dont know, Arkansas is one of the largest producers of chicken and hogs in the country...largely in part due to Tyson being here. They hire illegals, pay them cash, and they are a large part of their workforce.
When someone rats them out, US Customs will do a token visit, slap them a fine and even deport some of them just for appearances sake. Two weeks later, the same people are back at the plant working. Some of them have been deported numerous times.

Of course, they are getting paid cash. A legal citizen gets fed.tax and SS and state tax along with insurance and everything else. The illegal gets a check that is twice as big because they arent even in the system. Most of this they will send back home to their familys. We have trailers here with a few dozen illegals in them living like animals,the places are filthy. When their toilets stop up, they just resort to going outside, the places stink up the whole nieghborhood. I've been to some, I have seen it.

Its out of control and something needs to be done. The Feds have pretty much ignored it and will continue to. The states are getting fed up with it and they need to do something.

I dont know what the perfect solution is, I doubt that there is even one. One thing I know for sure...something needs to be done. We need to get our parks back, we need to crack down on the people that are welll connected that hire them and we need to get it back to where our own citizens dont fear what they see.

It's out of balance. My grandkids will never know what it is like to go to a park without fearing for their lives, or be able to see trash receptacles that arent overflowing or grafitti painted all over the pavilions.

Now that Arizona is trying to do something, they get flack from the people that live in the big crystal mansions that get driven to work everyday in a limousine.People that are so out of touch with reality that they have no real idea of life as most of us know it.

And for what? Coming up with legislation to protect themselves?

Brilliant. Absolutley brilliant.

Great post by the way except the last few sentences starting, "and for what"

You correctly pointed out the source of the problem, Tyson and many many other employers who play the same game plus an unwillingness of ICE to actually seriously deal with the employers who cheat.

However, you can't solve one problem by creating another. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The problem the AZ law created is that
two US Citizens in precisely the same circumstance, have entirely different exposure to the risk of arrest. That violates the equal protection clause.

The second problem the law created was a bit of absurd "canibalism" of their own municipalities; giving any citizen the right to sue the local police for not vigorously enforcing the new law. Can you imagine what would happen to your department budget if someone could sue your department for not (previously) enforcing the law at that park?

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[boatail]

I have no idea what "an off the books clean out" means, but when combined with your next remark, " if you think that all the actions being taken are on the record... mistaken as well," it sounds like you know of some unlawful activity going on where you are.

Law enforcement must happen on the books or it is illegal. Hiding events is illegal. Altering records is illegal. Harassing people is illegal. I hope you get the point for your own sake, just in case you actually meant to say what you wrote.

Entering the country illegally is illegal, murder is illegal, kidnap for ransom is illegal, importing drugs is illegal, "muling" illegals is illegal.. I hope everybody gets those points for their own sake, too

[morintp]

At least read a short synopsis of the bill before posting.

I have read the bill. There isn't anything in it that doesn't assure me that this isn't the first major step towards a papers please society. Reasonable suspicion? Probable cause? These are relatively ambiguous terms that can be used to justify a lot more than what is written. It happens all of the time.

Once you've been a member of this forum longer than a couple of months, you'll see various threads where the same people violently oppose anything like this. Ask the open carriers if they want to have to show their ID to any LEO that asks. I could probably find you 10 threads without even looking that discuss this same thing, but only in the OC cases instead of immigration. If this bill was against anyone other than illegal immigrants, there wouldn't be one bit of support for it here.

[morintp]

As for cracking down on the people that hire them...fat chance of that happening. We have TYSON foods here. For those that dont know, Arkansas is one of the largest producers of chicken and hogs in the country...largely in part due to Tyson being here. They hire illegals, pay them cash, and they are a large part of their workforce.
When someone rats them out, US Customs will do a token visit, slap them a fine and even deport some of them just for appearances sake. Two weeks later, the same people are back at the plant working. Some of them have been deported numerous times.

This is the root of the problem. Why aren't we enforcing our existing laws? I feel like a broken record. It's like trying to keep mice out of your house. If you leave food out, they will be all over the place. If you secure the food, you don't get mice. What is the sense in legislation that we don't enforce?

But then again, I don't know why I'm so worried about this. If they enforce this law as much as they do all of the other immigration laws, we won't have to worry about it. Yet the problem will never go away.

[21bubba]

I have read the bill. There isn't anything in it that doesn't assure me that this isn't the first major step towards a papers please society. Reasonable suspicion? Probable cause? These are relatively ambiguous terms that can be used to justify a lot more than what is written. It happens all of the time.

Once you've been a member of this forum longer than a couple of months, you'll see various threads where the same people violently oppose anything like this. Ask the open carriers if they want to have to show their ID to any LEO that asks. I could probably find you 10 threads without even looking that discuss this same thing, but only in the OC cases instead of immigration. If this bill was against anyone other than illegal immigrants, there wouldn't be one bit of support for it here.

"If this bill was against anyone other than illegal immigrants, there wouldn't be one bit of support for it here." Did you even think before you posted that sentence? Do you know someone who is "for" illegal immigration?

[glockman10mm]

Hmmmmm...Lets see..driving drunk..no threat..Domestic violence (the number one way cops get hurt) no threat...20% of Jail pop ..Gangs maybe..no threat..you might wanna reconsider you post..cuz your making a better argument for keeping them out....

Maybe there is a comprehensive problem on your part. If you READ the post, it is clear that I am for getting them out of the country.

[maddyfish]

Ask the open carriers if they want to have to show their ID to any LEO that asks..

Difference is Open Carriers aren't doing something illegal.

Open carriers don't want to produce papers because they are being stopped for the sole purpose that they are doing something disliked, but legal.

Under this bill, people who have already made contact with law enforcement, by premusably doing something illegal, will need to produce papers to show that they are not doing something else illegal. No different than having to show proof of insurance when stopped for speeding.

Apples to oranges.

And if you think cops will use this as just a means to run off illegals, you may be right, I trust cops very, very little too, but I suspect this will be monitored very closely. More closely than even a bad cop would want to chance.

[Hopyard]

Got any ideas of how to make it better?

Yes, the one you talked about.

1) Go after the employers, especially the ones who are repeat offenders.

2) Enforce the types of laws your mentioned regarding park use, camping, and vehicles.

3) Vigorously defend the border with Mexico

4) Actually take some steps to keep track of folks on visitor visas, student visas, and other temporary status individuals to be certain they leave when they are required to leave--- and follow up with arrests and punishment if they don't.

As for requests for papers and ID, and random stops, we have had innumerable discussions in other threads about the problems associated with in-land checks miles from the border. Notably a very long thread regarding an incident in Vermont and a US Senator or Congressman, and also several about certain check points along I-10.

We are at a cross road now. We must decide which way this country is going to go with regard to the present direction toward a "papers please" society. We either stop it now or we will all live to regret it.

[HotGuns]

We either stop it now or we will all live to regret it.

I already do.

[Hopyard]

It is what happens when people like you do not allow existing laws, or in the case of the AZ law, new laws to be enforced.
I see the AZ law as PROTECTING illegals. It puts them on the record, instead of what has been going on off the record.

It sounds as if you are in favor of illegal vigilantism. There is no such thing as legal off the book actions against people.

You seem to be saying it is OK to do illegal things to people and hide it off the books. I sure hope that isn't really what you meant.

[21bubba]

Yes, the one you talked about.

1) Go after the employers, especially the ones who are repeat offenders.

2) Enforce the types of laws your mentioned regarding park use, camping, and vehicles.

3) Vigorously defend the border with Mexico

4) Actually take some steps to keep track of folks on visitor visas, student visas, and other temporary status individuals to be certain they leave when they are required to leave--- and follow up with arrests and punishment if they don't.

As for requests for papers and ID, and random stops, we have had innumerable discussions in other threads about the problems associated with in-land checks miles from the border. Notably a very long thread regarding an incident in Vermont and a US Senator or Congressman, and also several about certain check points along I-10.

We are at a cross road now. We must decide which way this country is going to go with regard to the present direction toward a "papers please" society. We either stop it now or we will all live to regret it.

I never thought this would happen ,but I agree. Except for your#1.

This would in effect put the responsibility of "law enforcement" in the hands of the private sector.

[morintp]

"If this bill was against anyone other than illegal immigrants, there wouldn't be one bit of support for it here." Did you even think before you posted that sentence? Do you know someone who is "for" illegal immigration?

Did you even bother to read my post? Or maybe you should have thought before you posted your reply. I stand by what I said.

"If this bill was against anyone other than illegal immigrants, there wouldn't be one bit of support for it here." If you'd like, I can break down the sentence and explain it to you.

[morintp]

I never thought this would happen ,but I agree. Except for your#1.

This would in effect put the responsibility of "law enforcement" in the hands of the private sector.

How can we ever get the illegal immigration problem under control when we do not punish ALL of the offenders? Including the businesses that are illegally hiring the illegals. As long as they can earn money, they will continue to come here. Cut off the supply of jobs and they have no reason to cross the border.

[21bubba]

How can we ever get the illegal immigration problem under control when we do not punish ALL of the offenders? Including the businesses that are illegally hiring the illegals. As long as they can earn money, they will continue to come here. Cut off the supply of jobs and they have no reason to cross the border.

How about we SEAL the border?

Oh, I do read your posts. I just sometimes wonder why.

[morintp]

How about we SEAL the border?

Oh, I do read your posts. I just sometimes wonder why.

Whatever floats your boat. Read my posts or not, I really don't care. I have better things to do than worry about trolls. Just don't pick out one sentence that you obviously didn't comprehend and then try to tell me to think before I post. Its apparent that I put a little more thought into my posts than you seem to put into yours.

If you read my posts, you'd see that is another thing I would love to see happen. Fence in and militarize our borders.