Arizona Immigration Bill Poll - Page 4

Arizona Immigration Bill Poll

This is a discussion on Arizona Immigration Bill Poll within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by phreddy But she is here legally, right? You do not have to prove you are a citizen, just that you are here ...

View Poll Results: Do you support the Arizona Immigration Bill?

Voters
259. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, illegal immigration is a drain on the economy

    239 92.28%
  • No, This is based on bigotry

    14 5.41%
  • No opinion

    6 2.32%
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Thread: Arizona Immigration Bill Poll

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by phreddy View Post
    But she is here legally, right? You do not have to prove you are a citizen, just that you are here legally.
    Correct, my point is that if you are stopped only becuase you look illegal and you say that you are a US citizen, and refuse to produce an ID or just a New Mexico DL, do the police detain you until you prove your immigration status.

    I don't disagree with the law, but there are enough holes in it to drive a truck full of illegal immigrants through. Plus my wife is Canadain and we don't get stopped on our Northern Border either (especially in a car with Alabama tags)
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.


  2. #47
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    The slippery slope began with this

    Quote Originally Posted by boscobeans View Post
    Further explanation from the Washington Examiner:

    But what if the driver of the car had shown the officer his driver's license? The law clearly says that if someone produces a valid Arizona driver's license, or other state-issued identification, they are presumed to be here legally. There's no reasonable suspicion.
    Which as pgrass has shown is not a valid assumption. Hence the law is idiotic.

    Is having to produce a driver's license too burdensome?
    For some it could be. State issued ID other than a DL is a different matter, but how many folks get those.

    These days, natural-born U.S. citizens, and everybody else, too, are required to show a driver's license to get on an airplane,
    And that was the improper start of all of this garbage. That was the start of this garbage of government and many voters accepting a papers please society.

    Not satisfied with one inconvenience, we now have others inflicted on us. Go to a doc or veterinarian or any business that broadly can be thought of as issuing credit and you need "papers."

    See, what has been done is that the private sector has been used to make people carry documentation government itself heretofore wouldn't require.

    Now-- here's an example of how this stuff gets burdensome. My mom who lived to 91 moved to TX from AZ when she was 86. Before that time--- her whole 86 years on earth, she had no need for any papers issued by the government. (All you anti-gov folks need to read this because it sort of makes your case). She was able to do absolutely everything in daily life except perhaps apply for her social security and enroll in Medicare with no papers. She NEVER had a DL or a state issued ID.

    When she moved here and the airplane stuff came up and she had to get a state issued ID, the only ID she had was a Phoenix bus pass and a library card. Fortunately, she still had an old expired Passport from 20 years earlier and the state was willing to take that with her bus pass--which after all they could reason was issued by a government entity.

    These things may seem simple for most people, but there are many who run into road blocks getting ID because of life circumstance and who have every right to be here, to go about their business unbothered by officialdom and live their lives.

    Again, when I was growing up in the post WWII era, we made fun of the Russians and the Germans and the French and their systems of internal passports and ID requirements. We viewed these as signs of totalitarianism-- and they are the slippery slope to tyranny.

    Even today, I think it is largely myth that we get any real security from the need to produce an ID to get on a plane. The 9/11 bombers all had driver's licenses. They all got on a plane AFTER photo ID was the norm for boarding.

    So if you think reliance on a DL is any good, it isn't-- per pgrass's post and for other reasons.

  3. #48
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    re: sigmaluke One Pols view....

    Quote Originally Posted by sigmanluke View Post
    Why should one politician's opinion of a bill give me reason to opose it?
    It shouldn't. However, it should cause you to think that perhaps there are good reasons why you might not hold the proper or correct legal view. Its not like the guy isn't a former Judge Advocate. Its not like he wasn't the House's prosecutor of Clinton during the impeachment and never passed the bar; as most of us here. Its not like he doesn't have a long Senate career making law.

    Since he has all of those experiences his view that the law is unconstitutional at least should carry enough weight to make someone reading it ponder--- "he might be right, then what?"

  4. #49
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    pgrass, you just brought clarity to the issue

    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    Correct, my point is that if you are stopped only becuase you look illegal and you say that you are a US citizen, and refuse to produce an ID or just a New Mexico DL, do the police detain you until you prove your immigration status.
    I'm going to very slightly recast your sentence so the key point is not obscured by a diversion.

    "Correct, my point is that if you are stopped only because you look illegal and you say that you are a US citizen, and you can only produce a New Mexico DL, then what? Do you get detained till INS come 6 weeks later to verify that you are a US citizen?

    See, the DL is useless for checking status. And if there is a requirement for a passport or birth certificate, that requirement would have to apply universally to all, and be asked of all before the law would be constitutional per the 14th amendment's equal protection clause.

    Now pgrass's wife is Canadian he says, and for sake of discussion let's assume two things---though not necessarily fact (I have no idea). 1) let's assume she is caucasian. 2) Lets assume she is already naturalized so she has no need to carry a Green Card.

    I'll bet that if she is stopped for a traffic infraction in AZ and has in her possession a New Mexico DL, no one will bother her. If on the other hand she is Canadian of Asian heritage or Caribbean heritage, someone will say to her that her DL proves nothing; off to sheriff Joe you go till you can come up with papers.

    Right there is where the AZ law goes so drastically and unconstitutionally wrong. It will bringabout the targeting of US citizens for no reason other than their appearance, and there is absolutely no way around that fact.
    Last edited by Hopyard; April 29th, 2010 at 07:17 PM. Reason: added word not, after "is" in first sentence for clarity

  5. #50
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    re: bsnow

    Quote Originally Posted by bsnow View Post
    Lets see papers anyone? (deleted for brevity)

    1. Basic drivers licence. That don't include all the endorsements I had to obtain and pay for to Drive an 18 up to a 24 wheeler and more for Heavy haul and Oversize loads OVER THE ROAD nation wide U.S.A. With Hazardous Materials.
    Not proof of citizenship or lawful status. Perhaps the endorsements are depending on background checks done for them, but an ordinary DL isn't.

    2. I have to have a Picture I.D. to even enter my place of employment now, let alone work there.
    Nice, but those won't even get you on an airplane. They aren't government issued. AND, I once had government issued ID used to enter a building and we were ordered to not use that for air travel.

    3. LEO asks me hey bub you have a permit to CWP that heater? Yes sir here it is, another picture I.D.
    So? It shows that someone with your likeness has a right to have a gun. Did anyone check your birth certificate, naturalization certificate, or Green Card before issuing that license? Probably not. Hence, so?

    4. And of course least of which COSCO!
    Well next time you vacation in The Bahamas try to re-enter the US with your COSCO card.

    Point is this I can't leave the house without PAPERS!
    If you didn't make your living driving you could.

    Discrimination! Give me a break. If you want to be in this country Legally, you play by the rules or get out!
    My wife and pgrass's wife are in the country legally and mine is a citizen.
    Yet, AZ wants to treat her differently from everyone else. YUP. That IS discrimination.

  6. #51
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    I've deleted my post to stay off these type discussions. Carry on.
    For a man interested only in passin' through, he suddenly found himself entangled in a deadly struggle….

    ad utrumque paratus

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    It shouldn't. However, it should cause you to think that perhaps there are good reasons why you might not hold the proper or correct legal view. Its not like the guy isn't a former Judge Advocate. Its not like he wasn't the House's prosecutor of Clinton during the impeachment and never passed the bar; as most of us here. Its not like he doesn't have a long Senate career making law.
    Since he has all of those experiences his view that the law is unconstitutional at least should carry enough weight to make someone reading it ponder--- "he might be right, then what?"
    There are plenty of these law makers that just passed Federal Health Care, there was a law suit filed against the legality of that only 7 minutes after President Obama signed it. Should I think that's legal just because these law makers wrote the bill and it somehow got passed in both the House and Senate, then was signed into law by someone who I don't agree with morally or politically?

    Sorry, that's not a very good argument to me.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
    Thomas Jefferson

  8. #53
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    If you are not a citizen and you are here legally, you have already agreed to carry proof of your status with you at all times. It is part of your visa requirements. If you do not carry proof, you are in violation of your visa.

  9. #54
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    Here is an interesting read. It is the court papers filed by an AZ cop based on his understanding of the law. It's one person's opinion, but it is distressing that an LEO feels he is being ordered to violate civil rights in following the law. It also goes to the reading of the law as being applied to people not otherwise breaking a law.

    http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/im...29/escobar.pdf
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  10. #55
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    re: MSteve Thank you for posting this suit

    Quote Originally Posted by MSteve View Post
    Here is an interesting read. It is the court papers filed by an AZ cop based on his understanding of the law. It's one person's opinion, but it is distressing that an LEO feels he is being ordered to violate civil rights in following the law. It also goes to the reading of the law as being applied to people not otherwise breaking a law.

    http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/im...29/escobar.pdf
    Very interesting.

    Just read through the whole document.

    Now, I, and I hope the many other thoughtful people here would go and read the cited sections of 8 USC 1357 287g 1 and 5.

    Actually, I hope someone posts a url to them before I spend an hour searching.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Not proof of citizenship or lawful status. Perhaps the endorsements are depending on background checks done for them, but an ordinary DL isn't.



    Nice, but those won't even get you on an airplane. They aren't government issued. AND, I once had government issued ID used to enter a building and we were ordered to not use that for air travel.



    So? It shows that someone with your likeness has a right to have a gun. Did anyone check your birth certificate, naturalization certificate, or Green Card before issuing that license? Probably not. Hence, so?



    Well next time you vacation in The Bahamas try to re-enter the US with your COSCO card.



    If you didn't make your living driving you could.



    My wife and pgrass's wife are in the country legally and mine is a citizen.
    Yet, AZ wants to treat her differently from everyone else. YUP. That IS discrimination.


    Thanks for showing yourself sir. Regards and good luck!
    Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. PSALM 144:1

    I CLING to my guns and my Bible.

  12. #57

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcain007 View Post
    I support it 100% and wish Texas would do the same.
    A Texas State Representative was on Fox today. Texas will be introducing a similar bill in the Jan/11 legislative session.
    -Bark'n
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSteve View Post
    Unless I am misreading something...
    Every interpretation of this new law I have found says that law enforcement already had the right to ask for proof of citizenship when checking someone out for another offense.
    This new law was designed to allow them to check citizenship status of some one that they would not otherwise have a reason to interact with, simply because the officer thinks the person might be illegal. That means, they have no probable cause or reasonable suspicion...other than the person being hispanic. That's profiling and harrassment.

    Someone please point me to a good source if I am misreading it. I'm open to other interpretations, but so far it seems unconstitutional to me.
    This isn't correct. They can't stop without reasonable suspicion.
    No different than they can't search your vehicle without probable cause.

    There's a lot of speculation going around about how the law will be enforced. Sure, it could be abused, but so can any law. We're a nation of law, which law gets abused on a daily basis, somewhere.

    This law attacks illegal immigration. A person need not be a citizen to be legal.

    For some reason Arizona seems to lack the divine discerning powers of the fed; and can't defend itself, nor has the right to. [/sarcasm]
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passin' Through View Post
    I've deleted my post to stay off these type discussions. Carry on.
    And you Sir, are wise indeed
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

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