A friend was turned down for a job because...

This is a discussion on A friend was turned down for a job because... within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Hopyard There is a difference between looking and judging, and between unlawful judgments and unlawful decisions. There are really good reasons why ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    There is a difference between looking and judging, and between unlawful judgments and unlawful decisions. There are really good reasons why we have laws such as the ADAA and EEOC regulations, and other anti-discriminatory laws. These don't take from anyone the right to make rational judgments. They take the right to make discriminatory judgments.

    Too often advocates of PC are really advocating for the right to be impolite, uncivil, unjust toward others. We don't live in a libertarian utopia and if you want to know what that might look like, look to how things worked in 1870. Not really very well.
    Well I agree that we don't live in utopia, but what I want to know is... what is inherently wrong with 'discrimination' as you put it? Why shouldn't I have the right to choose one prospective employee over another, for whatever reason I choose? Wouldn't I be the only one who truly knows how I and my business will be best served? Why do you think you know more about what is good for my business than I do? The fact that something is written in law doesn't prevent me from thinking for myself.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tala View Post
    Well every job I have ever worked made you sign a statement that you can perform the basic functions of the job (lifting would be included) so that's for me to sign the paper or not, you can't tell just by looking.

    I believe that VS gets around discrimination laws the same way models do. Also some restraunts may prefer to hire only Aisian or hispanic waitstaff for "authenticity" and such is legal, I believe VS can probably stick to the "classic lingarie model" looking employees by the same line of reasoning, but I'm no lawyer.
    I take it you are agreeing that it should be ok for employers to decide who they prefer not to hire, as in your examples? FWIW, I do enjoy eating Mexican food that is prepared and served by Mexicans. I feel it makes that particular dining experience more complete and satisfying. My local deli only hires Asian men to cook their Chinese food, even though the food could be prepared by anyone. I don't have any problem with that. If they get a little more business that way, more power to them.

    You say that you are always required to sign a paper stating that you can do the basic job functions. How does that help the employer if you are a scrawny little girl and get injured on the job? Who pays the workman's comp. insurance? That money comes right out of the bottom line. With enough little 'feel good' restrictions on business owners, we can eventually drive them out of business and ruin the economy. Sometimes things that feel good are actually bad for society.

    BTW, I'm not familiar with how VS gets around discrimination laws?

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Tala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    I take it you are agreeing that it should be ok for employers to decide who they prefer not to hire, as in your examples? FWIW, I do enjoy eating Mexican food that is prepared and served by Mexicans. I feel it makes that particular dining experience more complete and satisfying. My local deli only hires Asian men to cook their Chinese food, even though the food could be prepared by anyone. I don't have any problem with that. If they get a little more business that way, more power to them.

    You say that you are always required to sign a paper stating that you can do the basic job functions. How does that help the employer if you are a scrawny little girl and get injured on the job? Who pays the workman's comp. insurance? That money comes right out of the bottom line. With enough little 'feel good' restrictions on business owners, we can eventually drive them out of business and ruin the economy. Sometimes things that feel good are actually bad for society.

    BTW, I'm not familiar with how VS gets around discrimination laws?
    I've seen plenty of guys get hurt on the job with their "macho" attitudes, whereas a female wouldn't have much trouble saying "this pallet is too heavy would you give me a push?"

    I heard explained once that some places can request only female bartenders (that was the topic at hand) because they classify some jobs the same way as acting jobs. You need a blonde large-busted female to play certain acting jobs so they can hire only that type of woman and not be sued for discrimination because they are looking to fill a certain role. Also at VS often the ladies are measuring for bra fitting and you can hire certain genders for that type of work as well. I dunno, ask VS if you want to know but I'm pretty sure they have some way around it.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them. -- John Wayne as John B. Books in "The Shootist"

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    Well I agree that we don't live in utopia, but what I want to know is... what is inherently wrong with 'discrimination' as you put it? Why shouldn't I have the right to choose one prospective employee over another, for whatever reason I choose? Wouldn't I be the only one who truly knows how I and my business will be best served? Why do you think you know more about what is good for my business than I do? The fact that something is written in law doesn't prevent me from thinking for myself.
    You make some good points, PC in the work place has really gotten out of control, but were I see the interviewer went wrong was when he verbalized his opinions.

    A more appropriate thing to say would have been something like, "Thank you for applying, we have a few more applicants to interview and we'll let you know something soon".

    Also, employers doing whatever they want with their own businesses is why we have EEOC laws, and unions, and ....

    Just watch a few documentaries on the Industrial Revolution, and the conditions the Robber/Barons made their employes work in and it really starts to make sense.
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  6. #20
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    I gotta agree with stanislaskasava. He who signs the checks makes the rules.

    Yeah, its to bad she did not get the job, and yeah, it was unprofessional to make the comment he made. But, at the end of the day, he has to decide what is best for his shop. And apparently, you friend was not the best for his shop. She might be a great worker and a talented welder, but if she is going to cause problems for everybody else then that needs to be considered.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    I don't mean to stir the pot, but I have a slightly different opinion. Shouldn't a business owner have the right to choose who he hires, based on whatever criteria he thinks is best? I think I have a fundamental problem with the government being involved in an employer's choice of employee. After all, the employer is PAYING MONEY for something (labor, appearance, personality, whatever it may be). Shouldn't the boss have the right to choose exactly what he wants to pay for?

    For example, would it really be wrong for a Victoria's Secret store manager to not hire someone who appeared to be a dirty old man during the interview? Would it really matter if he has boatloads of experience with women's lingerie? Would it really matter if he's an expert with a cash register? The manager might feel that a dirty old man behind the counter would hurt sales. The manager might feel that he would increase the potential for workplace harassment. Who knows. Shouldn't the one who's shelling out the cash get to choose what he gets in return?

    Maybe the OP's friend really didn't do all that well during the working interview and the boss didn't want to make her feel bad, so he gave her a compliment, instead. Maybe she didn't look strong enough to do some heavy lifting that he knew would be part of the job. Maybe she was overly flirtatious during the interview. Nobody knows his reasoning and I don't see why it's any of our (including the government or the court's) business.

    Have we all been brainwashed with political correctness and 'anti-discrimination' propaganda for so long that we can't think for ourselves anymore? Do we really need to sue, just because we can? I would never sue someone for doing something that I would like to have the right to do, if the shoe were on the other foot. If I did, I'd be one heckuva hypocrite.
    I agree with the point you are trying to make but people don't go into welding shops looking for a particular type of worker. Most welders work behind the scenes and are not part of the "store design". But I still believe the shop owner has the right to choose who he/she wants to hire based on most any reason that makes sense.

    I don't believe women have a place in combat and never will agree with it and to this day women still cannot enter into a combat MOS in the military other than some flight combat jobs.

    I do believe this particular employer could have picked a better way to eliminate the girl from the employee list if he really didn't feel she would work out.
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  8. #22
    Senior Member Array Herknav's Avatar
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    I agree that the employer should have the right to choose. However, if I was the employer, I'd hire the best qualified. I sure as heck would not punish her because Billy Ray might harass her. If that's the case, Billy Ray can find a new job.
    I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on Earth.--Steve McQueen

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    Well I agree that we don't live in utopia, but what I want to know is... what is inherently wrong with 'discrimination' as you put it? Why shouldn't I have the right to choose one prospective employee over another, for whatever reason I choose? Wouldn't I be the only one who truly knows how I and my business will be best served? Why do you think you know more about what is good for my business than I do? The fact that something is written in law doesn't prevent me from thinking for myself.
    Because society as a whole, through its state and federal legislators and through the acts of innumerable judges in various courts has made a determination that we will not permit certain things. Your question "why can't I" is the same as the the thief asking, "why can't I just take a beer." You can't, because society has decided it is wrong. So, if you were a beer thief, you could argue all day long that your right to a cold one was taken from you, but you'd still be going against what society deemed to be proper.

    In the case of discriminatory practices, our society has a long long history of allowing discrimination for gender, for religion, for ethnicity, for national origin, for race. We collectively looked around one day and decided NO MORE. Of course, there are holdouts who care nothing about obeying the law or right and wrong. Who would --as happened to my dad one time-- tell someone "we don't rent to Jews and dogs." Or, "we don't rent to Irish." Or, "we don't rent to Catholics." Or, "we don't hire Moslems." Or, "we don't admit Hispanics." Or, "we don't serve black." Or, "women can only work here as waitresses."

    The thing to keep in mind is that we must all get along and allow each other to make the most of our lives, or our whole minimally civilized world will come crashing down on us.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Because society as a whole, through its state and federal legislators and through the acts of innumerable judges in various courts has made a determination that we will not permit certain things. Your question "why can't I" is the same as the the thief asking, "why can't I just take a beer." You can't, because society has decided it is wrong. So, if you were a beer thief, you could argue all day long that your right to a cold one was taken from you, but you'd still be going against what society deemed to be proper.

    In the case of discriminatory practices, our society has a long long history of allowing discrimination for gender, for religion, for ethnicity, for national origin, for race. We collectively looked around one day and decided NO MORE. Of course, there are holdouts who care nothing about obeying the law or right and wrong. Who would --as happened to my dad one time-- tell someone "we don't rent to Jews and dogs." Or, "we don't rent to Irish." Or, "we don't rent to Catholics." Or, "we don't hire Moslems." Or, "we don't admit Hispanics." Or, "we don't serve black." Or, "women can only work here as waitresses."

    The thing to keep in mind is that we must all get along and allow each other to make the most of our lives, or our whole minimally civilized world will come crashing down on us.
    You're definition of right and wrong may be different from the next guy as well as "society" as a whole. Entire nations have decided in the past for thousands of years that the rape, pillage, and annihilation of an entire race of people was the RIGHT thing to do...

    I'm almost always going to side with a property owner in a situation like this. You have no right to force them to hire you as much as they have no right to force you to work for them.

    I suggest all here who are confused by the concept of property rights to read the following link in it's entirety. It is the most true and succinct expounding on the concept of "Man's Rights" if ever there was one.
    http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServ...and_man_rights
    Mans Rights, from Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal by Ayn Rand. Copyright (c) 1946, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1966 by Ayn Rand
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  11. #25
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Linking to Ayn Rand as support of a position is, in general, a really bad move. She's required reading for young adolescents, but then once you grow up, you get over that brand of selfish myopia.

    The complaint that the employer "should be able to hire whomever he wants" is, in this case, an obvious dog whistle. It means, between the lines, "I want to be able to discriminate against black people." In a somewhat lesser vein, it means you want to be able to exert prejudice against women, gays, and anybody else you personally dislike.

    And in small companies, that's still how it is and there's no big bad evil government that says you can't do exactly that. And so a lot of employers routinely hire only those they favor. Where the government steps in is with companies with over 50 employees, where systemic discrimination causes societal problems that affect everybody.

    Now, this case is really egregious because the female welder is being denied employment solely on the basis of things she cannot control and things that do not bear upon her fitness to perform the task in question. She's qualified, expert, and has no demerits. The reason for denial is that the other coworkers in the shop are a bunch of lewd animals who just can't be counted on to control themselves. A gang of wild dogs that grunt and slobber. So, sorry lady - hit the road.

    I've read everything Ice Queen Ayn ever wrote from her nicotine-stained fingers, but it doesn't change my perception that what happened here was wrong. If you don't think there was a problem and that this was a just and fitting outcome, then you probably need to widen up your reading list.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Linking to Ayn Rand as support of a position is, in general, a really bad move. She's required reading for young adolescents, but then once you grow up, you get over that brand of selfish myopia.

    The complaint that the employer "should be able to hire whomever he wants" is, in this case, an obvious dog whistle. It means, between the lines, "I want to be able to discriminate against black people." In a somewhat lesser vein, it means you want to be able to exert prejudice against women, gays, and anybody else you personally dislike.

    And in small companies, that's still how it is and there's no big bad evil government that says you can't do exactly that. And so a lot of employers routinely hire only those they favor. Where the government steps in is with companies with over 50 employees, where systemic discrimination causes societal problems that affect everybody.

    Now, this case is really egregious because the female welder is being denied employment solely on the basis of things she cannot control and things that do not bear upon her fitness to perform the task in question. She's qualified, expert, and has no demerits. The reason for denial is that the other coworkers in the shop are a bunch of lewd animals who just can't be counted on to control themselves. A gang of wild dogs that grunt and slobber. So, sorry lady - hit the road.

    I've read everything Ice Queen Ayn ever wrote from her nicotine-stained fingers, but it doesn't change my perception that what happened here was wrong. If you don't think there was a problem and that this was a just and fitting outcome, then you probably need to widen up your reading list.
    Ah yes, the perfect argument. Call everyone who doesn't believe in slavery a racist... Talk about lack of objective support. So in your mind, you should be able to apply for a job in my business and I should always no matter what be forced to hire you because you feel your qualifications are perfect for the job huh? So what position does that put me in? Oh right, a slave.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  13. #27
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    Man’s Rights,” from Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal by Ayn Rand. Copyright (c) 1946, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1966 by Ayn Rand
    A lots changed since 1946.

    One EEOC hearing and this interviewer will never make a bone headed commit like that again.
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    If she's good at her work then she has every right to be hired. The argument that all men are rapists who can't control themselves is crap and she should sue their asses off if she's denied work for such a spurious reason. The guys on the floor should be thankful that they'll have something nice to look at during the workday.
    My point is that you put a young single female in a shop full of young single males and you very likely will end up with more socializing going on than work, and then if a relationship does happen there is jealously that also hurts the work environment. 37 years in industry and I have seen this story play out many times... some times good many times bad..... but more bad, if it was my shop and it was a small one I would not hire her for that very reason. Bottom line romance in the work place possible or otherwise real bad idea and it should be discouraged.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I gotta agree with stanislaskasava. He who signs the checks makes the rules.

    Yeah, its to bad she did not get the job, and yeah, it was unprofessional to make the comment he made. But, at the end of the day, he has to decide what is best for his shop. And apparently, you friend was not the best for his shop. She might be a great worker and a talented welder, but if she is going to cause problems for everybody else then that needs to be considered.
    And if she pursues this, the lesson file will include a new card: "It's best for the shop if you don't unlawfully discriminate based on gender and get fined / sued by the federal government." :-)

    Or, perhaps: "If you're going to unlawfully discriminate against someone, don't be so stupid as to tell them you're doing it."

    Matt
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    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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