A friend was turned down for a job because...

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Thread: A friend was turned down for a job because...

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    So in your mind, you should be able to apply for a job in my business and I should always no matter what be forced to hire you
    Nope. You can refuse to hire me on any grounds you like, if your business is under 50 employees. If you're over that, you can still deny just by picking some other applicant. It's very, very difficult for a person denied a job to have any recourse. So the Ayn Randian Objectivists can sleep easy at night.

    But, if you deny a person on the grounds that they're "too purdy" or something like that, they should sue if possible.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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  3. #32
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    If she is the most qualified for the job, she should be hired. If the male workers "act out inappropriately," they should be advised however necessary that such behavior is not acceptable. She should not bear the burden of being both the victim of and recipient of other's bad behavior.

    If the shop does government work, and contract work for many large companies, those customers may impose certain standards on that welding shop.

    About those who questioned whether someone was physically qualified for some job, it's called a pre-employment physical. My dad was an orthopedic surgeon. When he started to get arthritis in his hands (not good for a surgeon), he taught ortho and got his boards in Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation. That in hand, he went to work for the federal gov. at an Air Force base. Basically, a lot of people wanted to scam the gov't into a full disability that they engineered. A guy with a bad back would try to get a loading dock job so he could work a month and then sue for lifetime full disability. My dad was one of the doctors who could disqualify those scammers.

    Some businesses, like Hooters Restaurants, had to hire male food servers. Since the job didn't require being female, Hooters had to comply with the law. But don't expect to see former longshoremen modeling bikinis at a fashion show. Those jobs, thankfully, are reserved for the ladies.

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    I'm amazed the shop told her the truth.........or maybe they didn't, who knows. We weren't there.

    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    Shouldn't a business owner have the right to choose who he hires, based on whatever criteria he thinks is best?
    Should? Maybe. Can they? Not anymore.

    Does she have a gun? (keeping this gun related)

  5. #34
    Member Array Shackleton's Avatar
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    Alright, well now that I have cooled off a bit, I feel like it's time to contribute and update. Firstly, she went back to the shop and received an almost begging apology from the owner of the company, who also told her that his shop foreman (the interviewer in question) was out of line with his comment and is being sent to sensitivity training (oh boy...). However, the owner sidestepped the whole issue by focusing her mind on the apologies. Which, from what she told me, seemed legit. Also, I landed her an interview at another shop that mainly focuses custom car parts. Once I get a new camera (lost it to a mountain biking incident involving heavy rain) I'll see if I can get some pictures of her work both in fabrication and, if she gets the job, her custom car work.

    Ok. I see valid points on both sides. Without a doubt in MY mind, the foreman was out of line in voicing his thoughts, especially to her. Yes, it is his shop to run, (under the upper management naturally) as well as his choice as to whom he will hire or not. However to come out and say that to someones face is downright degrading, as well as demoralizing. JMHO. Also, he should be careful what he says, because had she wanted to sue, she would have made off with more money than she would have made in several years working there. Yes, I feel like PC has gone too far. On the other hand, this sort of thing really rattles my cage. She is a fantastic welder and a hard worker. If the guys can't deal, handle it when it happens. Somehow.

    All I am really saying is he should have said "Thanks for for coming, I have a for more interviews and once I review all of the possible candidates, I will make my decision." Simple as that.

    As for pics, once again, my apologies for not having a functional camera, but also I don't think she'd take to kindly to me posting pictures of her on the web I'll ask her though, and see what she says.

    She does not own a gun yet, but recently got her CHP. She is wheel gun crazy, so naturally I suggested a .44 mag. She'd like one, but not for carry. Who knows, maybe a .357 or a .38 is in her near future. I'll say this, I don't have the guts to even jokingly suggest a .22 for her!
    Semper Paratus

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  6. #35
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    The complaint that the employer "should be able to hire whomever he wants" is, in this case, an obvious dog whistle. It means, between the lines, "I want to be able to discriminate against black people." In a somewhat lesser vein, it means you want to be able to exert prejudice against women, gays, and anybody else you personally dislike.
    Whoa, buddy. What reason do you have to accuse me of being a hating black people? Or a women? Or a homosexuals? For all you know, I may be a black female homosexual. You seem to have come to your conclusions rather quickly, without ever knowing me, and I say that seats you squarely in the 'prejudice' chair.

    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Now, this case is really egregious because the female welder is being denied employment solely on the basis of things she cannot control and things that do not bear upon her fitness to perform the task in question. She's qualified, expert, and has no demerits. The reason for denial is that the other coworkers in the shop are a bunch of lewd animals who just can't be counted on to control themselves. A gang of wild dogs that grunt and slobber. So, sorry lady - hit the road.
    Once again, your prejudice is showing. Your hateful words must be based upon your previous experience with other welders or with other men, since I assume you do not know any of the people at that shop personally? That is the perfect definition of prejudice -- hating someone you have never met, based upon something they happen to be.

    Might I point out that you have never met the female welder in question either, and you don't really know why she wasn't hired. Doesn't it seem plausible that there was another reason that she wasn't hired and telling her that she would be 'too distracting' was simply a way to let her down easy, with a compliment? Maybe the boss just got a weird vibe, perhaps sensing a personality conflict. If that was the case, he probably wouldn't say that her welding was sub-par, so he had to come up with something else.

    None of use were there, none of us know what really happend, and it's really none of our business. The boss made his decision and that's good enough for me.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Turn him in to EEO later....

    In the meantime, he's the one who lost out if she's a good welder.... I think she's lucky not to be working for the nimrod. But, as we all know, that also doesn't pay the bills...... so I hope she finds something soon.

    I got tired yrs back during another "semi-depression" ..... they were always telling me that I was either over-qualified, or not the correct "race"... as some Fedl Grants prescribed the person must be a particular race. Our Govt, doing racial discrimination.
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  8. #37
    Member Array Carrie's Avatar
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    That sucks for your friend and I hope she gets a job soon hopefully somewhere she is appreciated for her abilities and not just her looks. What do you want to bet that was the last time the foreman gets to hold interviews? What an idiot!
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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shackleton View Post
    Yes, it is his shop to run, (under the upper management naturally) as well as his choice as to whom he will hire or not. However to come out and say that to someones face is downright degrading, as well as demoralizing.
    See...all this PC crap today irritates the bejeebers out of me. You yourself even admit the shop owner can and should do as he pleases, but you don't like his answer. So....you would rather people just lie to you?
    An absolutely outrageous example:
    You just completed what YOU think is a human cloaking device. In your zeal for proving your new device you decide to test yourself, by walking down a city street in public, NAKED!

    Now, the truth of the matter is that your device doesn't really work and you really are walking down the street naked and completely oblivious to the fact that you are not...invisible. Would you rather folks just let you stroll on by while continuing to laugh their collective butts off at you after you go by, or would you rather some honest person actually pull you aside and explain the facts of life to you?
    A more realistic example.
    I have NO COLLEGE DEGREE, yet contrary to all the preconceived and government spin to the contrary("you better finish college, you can't go anywhere without a degree"), the jobs I typically hold(current included), pay me more than most WITH a degree(upper-middle class in Northern VA). Why? Because I do my job extremely well, AND I'm brutally honest with everyone I deal with at work. That was part of why I was hired.

    We all know where we stand if we're not lying to each other. If project x is going to fail because some jack-donkey didn't build something right or failed to do their job correctly, guess what...? Yep, I'm giving it to them the hard way! If someone flips the switch on something I invented, but it fails catastrophically because I gave the vendor the wrong specs what do I do? Do I try to cover it up? Hide the results? Blame some other poor bugger that happened to touch it last? Nope, I have to call the boss and give it to them straight, ala "I fouled up and this is what we need to do to fix it". No sugar coating, no BS. Just the facts.

    If someone I'm dealing with is being an ass, yep, I tell them and I expect them to do the same towards me if I overstep the line. No point dancing around the issue. All that serves is to continue to perpetuate the problem, whatever that may be. If I don't like someone I have to deal with, my boss already knows it and knows what is necessary(managerial referee) to get us to work well together to get the job done to the best it can be.
    The real problem here is our weak minded, I deserve whatever I want everyone else be damned, overly litigious society. Guess this means I can't be a politician huh?
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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  10. #39
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    the real problem is all the assumptions being made: foreman assuming his other workers can't handle themselves around a woman, foreman assuming this woman can't handle herself around them, owner assuming the foreman can make responsible decisions for his shop, assuming all the welders are young, assuming size is always indicative of strength, ... I get tired of people making ignorant assumptions and then making decisions as if they were facts - stupid, stupid, stupid. One of the things that's driving this country into the toilet.

    Anti-discrimination laws had/have their place, but I agree they go to far when unqualified people get jobs to meet quotas. Nepotism also gets my blood boiling when the family member ain't worth squat.

    To really send the message home she should see a lawyer to see what it'd be worth for her time, trouble, frustration.

    More and more, I consider carrying a voice recorder when engaging with other people.
    Last edited by JD; August 25th, 2010 at 10:21 PM.

  11. #40
    Member Array Shackleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    See...all this PC crap today irritates the bejeebers out of me. You yourself even admit the shop owner can and should do as he pleases, but you don't like his answer. So....you would rather people just lie to you?
    All I'm saying is that there was a better way to go about it.
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  12. #41
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    Aren't we the same people who want America to be the land of the free again?

    I am not a bigot, a sexist or a homophobe, but I believe that in America a private (non governmental) employer should be able to hire or not hire anyone for any reason. Be it gender, age, race, creed or sexual orientation.

    America is supposed to be free. Freedom isn't simple or easy and if you want true freedom you are going to have to put up with plenty of nitwits that won't belive the same things you believe.
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and Ió
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.

  13. #42
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Aren't we the same people who want America to be the land of the free again?

    I am not a bigot, a sexist or a homophobe, but I believe that in America a private (non governmental) employer should be able to hire or not hire anyone for any reason. Be it gender, age, race, creed or sexual orientation.

    America is supposed to be free. Freedom isn't simple or easy and if you want true freedom you are going to have to put up with plenty of nitwits that won't belive the same things you believe.
    That's exactly right and a lot of people forget this. On one hand they want their freedom but on the other hand, they want someone to be forced to accommodate them in some way.

    That's always been the bait for socialism; "equality." But it leaves everyone equal, all right. Equally mediocre.
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  14. #43
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    The complaint that the employer "should be able to hire whomever he wants" is, in this case, an obvious dog whistle. It means, between the lines, "I want to be able to discriminate against black people." In a somewhat lesser vein, it means you want to be able to exert prejudice against women, gays, and anybody else you personally dislike.
    I'm going to respectfully disagree. What if an obese woman applies for a job at a high-profile health food store? What about a hip bikini shop? What if a 70-year old man applies for sales at The Gap?

    See what I mean? Some employers have a certain "image" of the type of person they want to hire. I think it's highly unconstitutional for that employer to be told by the government, "No, you'll hire the obese woman to represent your health food store because we said so."

    The Texas Rangers have a minimum height requirement (I forget what it is) and I'm pretty sure they also require that one be born in Texas. Keep in mind that this is technically a government agency, although at the state level. So can a man who is slightly less than the required height not do the job? What about a man who was born three minutes across the Arkansas border? Where is this line drawn?

    In these politically sensitive times, anyone can yell "Discrimination!" for any reason at any time. But the real truth is that some people don't fit in some places.

    I believe that every human being has something awesome about them, but the flip side is that everyone needs to find a place where their "awesome" attributes are appropriate and appreciated.
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

  15. #44
    Member Array Shackleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Aren't we the same people who want America to be the land of the free again?

    I am not a bigot, a sexist or a homophobe, but I believe that in America a private (non governmental) employer should be able to hire or not hire anyone for any reason. Be it gender, age, race, creed or sexual orientation.

    America is supposed to be free. Freedom isn't simple or easy and if you want true freedom you are going to have to put up with plenty of nitwits that won't belive the same things you believe.
    Atctimmy, I know where you are coming from. Perhaps my outrage comes from being too close to it but even then I suppose I am letting my PC side get the better of me. We have all been there so I don't have to delve too far into it but I see what you are saying and I appreciate what you are saying.
    Semper Paratus

    ‎"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shackleton View Post
    Atctimmy, I know where you are coming from. Perhaps my outrage comes from being too close to it but even then I suppose I am letting my PC side get the better of me. We have all been there so I don't have to delve too far into it but I see what you are saying and I appreciate what you are saying.

    Well said Sir, and thank you for not getting upset. Freedom can be very frustrating, but IMO it's better than the alternative. I hope your friend finds a great job elsewhere.
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and Ió
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.

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