Papers please, oops!!!

Papers please, oops!!!

This is a discussion on Papers please, oops!!! within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I hope this isn't too political. I don't mean it that way. And certainly not in a partisan way. Here's the link to the story ...

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    Papers please, oops!!!

    I hope this isn't too political. I don't mean it that way. And certainly not in a partisan way.

    Here's the link to the story of a guy who was born here, Houston, had a birth certificate on him, had a TX DL on him, got turned over to CBP by the local cops.

    CBP questioned him for many hours and eventually wore him down into confessing to be here illegally and to sign away his rights and agree to be deported.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39180275...ation_divided/

    According to the story, the same fate would have happened to his brother except that he happened to have a copy of a passport application on him and a selective service registration card (which really shows nothing about status). [Nowadays, how many 18 + men even do what they are supposed to do, and how many actually keep the documentation? Now there's about 25 million we could stop wasting, maintaining that anachronistic bureaucracy.]

    “They kept saying, ‘These are not your documents. You’re lying to us. You’re going to go prison for 20 years’,” Torres said. “They basically wore him down. He’s a 19-year-old kid.”

    As I've posted elsewhere, incidents like this happen about 300 times a year.
    They are a good reason for us to give some real additional thought to creation of a papers please society.

    In the story it is mentioned that "his brother located immigration lawyer Torres, who took the case pro bono."

    Uh, isn't it sad that US Citizens can end up needing to prove themselves to disbelieving "officials."

    I don't know an answer, a way forward, but we need the first step. We need to get back to the day when people didn't need to walk around with papers. Instead, we are moving in the opposite and wrong direction.


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    that is so unbelievably horrible I do not even know where to begin
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    As another DC member recently posted, "the plural of anecdote is not evidence."

    In the spirit of balance, we also need to move in the direction of those who are required to carry papers (e.g., green card and visa holders) actually having them on their person as required. Let's not deny US citizens any of their rights, but let's also not give the wrong people a pass. "Trust, but verify."
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    As another DC member recently posted, "the plural of anecdote is not evidence."

    In the spirit of balance, we also need to move in the direction of those who are required to carry papers (e.g., green card and visa holders) actually having them on their person as required. Let's not deny US citizens any of their rights, but let's also not give the wrong people a pass. "Trust, but verify."
    I agree but that's not going to work in Hop's utopia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I don't know an answer, a way forward, but we need the first step. We need to get back to the day when people didn't need to walk around with papers. Instead, we are moving in the opposite and wrong direction.
    Here's the problem I see starting to happen. I'm a US citizen. I drive a car and a tractor trailer. I am required by law to carry my ID with me and offer it to any LEO that asks for it if I am operating a vehicle. However, ICE is now looking to not detain illegals who are not known felons (how would they know?), using drugs, or involved in an accident involving drugs or alcohol.

    The time may soon come where I will be ticketed for not carrying my DL. But an illegal will be let go, no ticket, no detention, no questions. It's already happening in Charlotte, NC. Illegals have been allowed to leave the scene of a minor traffic accident, no DL, no insurance, and no ticket. Do you think that would happen for you or me? There is quickly becoming 2 Americas. One where citizens are held accountable, and one where illegals are not. And that needs to stop as well.

    Do I think it's OK for a citizen to go through a lot of hassles to prove themselves legal? No. But I don't think it's too much to expect someone to have a DL or state ID that's valid or suffer legal consequences. I have to, why should they not? I also think the LEO's that apparently did not check his documents should be treated with little mercy. If it was possible to verify them, and they did not, they should be fired.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Uh, isn't it sad that US Citizens can end up needing to prove themselves to disbelieving "officials."
    That's the simple truth of any "official" claim leveled against anyone, pretty much. Officialdom has become so sacrosanct in its own mind that the Constitutionally supported innocence until proven guilty has been effectively morphed into guilty unless claims can be turned aside. We allow it to occur, by failing to have severe and costly "teeth" in our legal response to such "officials" who dare screw innocents with this heinous type of power play. Ten to one such criminals merely get fired, at best (if that; if anything other than being forced to say "oops" in reconciliation). In such clear cases of presumed guilt and harassment, I'd like to see fairly harsh fines and sentences for gross abuse of power against such people who dare level such things against innocents. Until then, it will continue.


    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    The time may soon come where I will be ticketed for not carrying my DL. But an illegal will be let go, no ticket, no detention, no questions.
    It's utterly amazing to me that illegals are not immediately deported each and every time they're found (after serving whatever sentences they might be convicted of, first, of course.)


    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    There is quickly becoming 2 Americas. One where citizens are held accountable, and one where illegals are not. And that needs to stop as well.
    Yes. Much like the firearms/carry laws effectively drive the behavior of upstanding citizens only, where criminals just continue ignoring such things as they always have. Result? The only real impact is on upstanding citizens, with no practical effect on criminals at all.
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    It's utterly amazing to me that illegals are not immediately deported each and every time they're found (after serving whatever sentences they might be convicted of, first, of course.)
    It is astonishing. It's also a good reminder that just because certain "laws" are on the books doesn't really mean anything. What does matter is which laws are enforced and which are ignored.

    If you remember the Hiibel vs Nevada case, then you're old enough to remember when a cop couldn't necessarily get up in your face and start demanding to "see some ID." There was a time in our country where, if you were doing nothing wrong, you could tell said cop to "buzz off." (Of course, there was an even earlier time where said cop would have thereupon proceeded to take you apart with a nightstick, but I digress.)

    Over time, as we've gotten used to showing ID at airports, at the grocery store when using credit cards, it's easy to forget that this is a relatively new phenomenon. There's something kind of insulting and irritating at having a convenience store clerk ask you for ID: Who the hell are you and what right do you have to ask me to identify? Screw you!

    A certain kind of American will read the above, nod his head and understand exactly what I'm talking about.

    Another type will squint and feel uncomfortable: "You have done nothing wrong, so why not show ID?"

    And yet another will think, "Dude, it's just ID - what's the problem?"

    So. While we would like to see illegal aliens treated like the border-jumping scofflaws that they are, we should also be very careful about authorizing the police to conduct paperwork shakedowns at their own discretion. Maybe Officer Donut has a highly tuned sense of who is illegal. But maybe he doesn't. As a general rule, most people seem to have found that giving police new, broad sweeping powers is something they eventually come to regret.
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    Born in the US but returned to Mexico, in other words anchor baby. Though technically a US citizen, this guy was birthed here to cash in on our benefits, but spent his life in Mexico. Just imagine, if you were a Border Patrol officer, would you believe that someone that cannot speak English is an American citizen? Considering the proliferation of stolen/forged documents I would certainly have my doubts.
    If you can't speak English, then you certainly can't read it, so how does one take a drivers test and get a drivers license if he can't even read the test. This is just another good reason why foreign nationals who come here in labor should not have American citizenship given to their offspring, especially when the mother is here illegally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    As another DC member recently posted, "the plural of anecdote is not evidence."

    In the spirit of balance, we also need to move in the direction of those who are required to carry papers (e.g., green card and visa holders) actually having them on their person as required. Let's not deny US citizens any of their rights, but let's also not give the wrong people a pass. "Trust, but verify."

    Actually if you are a legal alein then you have to carry your green card with you all of the time. My wife a legal US resident (applying for US citizenship now) and Canadain citizen has to carry her green card all of the time

    From USCIS green card is issued to all permanent residents as proof that they are authorized to live and work in the United States. If you are a permanent resident age 18 or older, you are required to have a valid green card in your possession at all times. Current green cards are valid for 10 years, or 2 years in the case of a conditional resident, and must be renewed before the card expires.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post

    I don't know an answer, a way forward, but we need the first step.
    A first step would be to get "Americans" to speak and read English as a first language and to get rid of the Spanish on every blasted sign and product.
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    Quote Originally Posted by automatic slim View Post
    Born in the US but returned to Mexico, in other words anchor baby. Though technically a US citizen, this guy was birthed here to cash in on our benefits, but spent his life in Mexico. Just imagine, if you were a Border Patrol officer, would you believe that someone that cannot speak English is an American citizen? Considering the proliferation of stolen/forged documents I would certainly have my doubts.
    If you can't speak English, then you certainly can't read it, so how does one take a drivers test and get a drivers license if he can't even read the test. This is just another good reason why foreign nationals who come here in labor should not have American citizenship given to their offspring, especially when the mother is here illegally.
    Whatever you might choose to think about the anchor baby issue, the fact is the man had both his birth certificate and a state issued ID, which was legitimate, on him. There are many people who for various reasons are born here, even born here to US citizens, who get raised abroad and return with accented speech.

    Shockwave hit the nail on the head in his post--- there are three kinds of Americans he wrote: "A certain kind of American will read the above, nod his head and understand exactly what I'm talking about.

    Another type will squint and feel uncomfortable: "You have done nothing wrong, so why not show ID?"

    And yet another will think, "Dude, it's just ID - what's the problem?""

    Hiibel was an horrendous ruling. The long term negative effects (which we are already experiencing in our daily lives) are going to fundamentally do great damage to freedom of ordinary people. And Hiibel is misunderstood as IT did not require the carrying of papers by US Citizens; only a willingness to state their name.

    As for the folks who show ID in the Stop and Rob, ALL major credit card companies have provisions in their merchant agreements forbidding the merchant from asking for additional ID. And there are good reasons for that provision.

    We all let Uncle get ahead of freedom when we didn't put up a fuss over airline demands for ID when security was still done by private companies and not TSA. We get screened, searched, they don't need ID and they don't need no-fly lists without means to get yourself removed. Without any process let alone due process.

    Buy a ticket and get on board. That's how it worked with trains (Amtrack) and planes until relatively recently.

    OBL never envisioned that his single act of violence would cause us to change from "the home of the brave" to the home of folks who give up freedom for a misperceived security advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Here's the problem I see starting to happen. I'm a US citizen. I drive a car and a tractor trailer. I am required by law to carry my ID with me and offer it to any LEO that asks for it if I am operating a vehicle. However, ICE is now looking to not detain illegals who are not known felons (how would they know?), using drugs, or involved in an accident involving drugs or alcohol.

    The time may soon come where I will be ticketed for not carrying my DL. But an illegal will be let go, no ticket, no detention, no questions. It's already happening in Charlotte, NC. Illegals have been allowed to leave the scene of a minor traffic accident, no DL, no insurance, and no ticket. Do you think that would happen for you or me? There is quickly becoming 2 Americas. One where citizens are held accountable, and one where illegals are not. And that needs to stop as well.

    Do I think it's OK for a citizen to go through a lot of hassles to prove themselves legal? No. But I don't think it's too much to expect someone to have a DL or state ID that's valid or suffer legal consequences. I have to, why should they not?
    Because we should respect individual liberty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Because we should respect individual liberty.
    Does this include people not having to show proper ID when operating vehicles? The guy in your post was driving, was asked for DL, etc. The LEO's did not accept them as good enough. The issue should have been dropped when things came back as legit. It was not, and there is the problem.

    This isn't some form of pseudo nazi papers issue. You are required by law to have a valid DL to operate a motor vehicle. It's not a right it's a privilege. I have to have one on me and so do you. Are you saying that we should rally behind allowing illegal immigrants to drive without proper DL's and insurance because of "individual liberty"? Try that next time you are stopped for speeding or in an accident.

    Did the system fail this particular individual? In as much as he is a citizen, yes it did. Not even going to argue validity of citizenship here. But if you are saying that we have an individual liberty to drive around without proper identification, we don't. Particularly if you break a law, like the guy in the article did when he was pulled for speeding. Why should we expect any less for immigrants? If we are going to wish for equal treatment, then lets have it. If you are operating a motor vehicle you have to have a valid DL and insurance. If you don't you go to court or jail. Sure let's treat them equally. By making them responsible when the law is broken, just like you and I.

    How is allowing someone to break the law because they are not a citizen respecting individual liberty?
    Last edited by chiefjason; September 16th, 2010 at 12:59 AM. Reason: spelling
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    This isn't some form of pseudo nazi papers issue. You are required by law to have a valid DL to operate a motor vehicle. It's not a right it's a privilege.
    It's legislated as though it were a privileged gift from the king. I have never seen what difference having an engine means, nor that it can run more speedily than other easily purchased wheeled tools of the sort, or that it requires a bit of focused training to master. I can see the requirement for training, but I've never understood the designation of it as "privilege." Fact of the matter is that as citizens the roadways and related infrastructure are OURS. We have paid for it and own it. We only temporarily elect some people to administer the details of things. Yet traveling the roadways in a car is called a privilege, instead of calling cars just another conveyance that should be the right (once purchased and trained) of any person with liberty in a land of liberty.

    It's about as silly as the entire concept of the 2A specifying a preexisting right to be armed and to bear (carry) arms, yet that right effectively becomes a privilege with the permissions process, effectively legislated to the point it hardly exists in those states where it's non-issue (WI, IL) or might-possibly-issue-if-you're-rich-or-connected.

    Silly, in a land of liberty populated with free citizens, eh? No politician has ever been able to satisfactorily explain to me why the privileged approach came to the carrying of arms or the driving of cars. I doubt any know or care, any longer, considering they're (at least from the time of being elected onward) a member of the "privileged" set.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; September 17th, 2010 at 04:16 PM. Reason: grammar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    A first step would be to get "Americans" to speak and read English as a first language and to get rid of the Spanish on every blasted sign and product.
    I agree, this should be the basic start. Our country won't even declare English as our official language.
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