Blaming the victim

This is a discussion on Blaming the victim within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I see on many of the threads involving self defense where blame is placed on the victim for being out at night or somewhere we ...

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Thread: Blaming the victim

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Blaming the victim

    I see on many of the threads involving self defense where blame is placed on the victim for being out at night or somewhere we might consider dangerous. We ourselves place blame on those who are out at night if they are beaten or robbed. To me this is no different than blaming the rape victim for what they are wearing.

    Haven't we made the night unsafe by our own inaction? We seem tho think that its everyone else's job to keep us safe while we hide in our cave until daylight. Ever think that the bad guys are free to roam at night because we have allowed them to? We have given the the night without a fight.

    Remember when folks sat out on their porch at night? They didn't run inside and hide when some kids walked by. They yelled at the kids and told them to behave. Called them by name and threatened to call their parents on them.

    Before you tell me times have changed. First off its not time thats changed its the people. Second did things change causing people to quit looking out for their neighborhoods? Or, did things change because people quit looking out for their neighborhoods and therefore allowing the bad guys to take over in the absence of the good folks.

    Michael

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    Good post!

    I'm with ya on this one. The day I'm afraid to set foot out the door after dark, is the day I no longer need to continue living...

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    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Society has changed... criminals grow more bold and the public grows more fearful. It is unfortunate but to survive in today's world one must use common sense. If you can avoid a bad part of town then it would be wise to do so.
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I agree and was part of a discussion related to this in the thread on the woman who took the gun away from her robber and shot him with it.

    While prudence in ones actions and the places that that go is important, the level that these things effect ones life are individual choices. I do not intentionally go places considered dangerous for no reason, but if I have a reason, even such as a burrito, I go where I wish. I have dealt with people of the night for a good portion of my life so I am aware of those whom I might encounter and the possible consequences of those encounters. When such time comes that I believe that my fangs are dull and my claws broken, I may reconsider. Some would say that this is foolish and it is their right to do so, just as it is my right to live my life as I see fit, within the law. I consider myself a reasonable person, you live your life as you see fit and I will do the same.
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    I think there is a force out there continually moving to corrupt society and destroy everything good. Some might quote the laws of thermodynamics saying that out of order come chaos. I think that it's something more sinister.

    "The biggest lie that Satan ever told was that he didn't exist." Kaiser Soze
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I do not intentionally go places considered dangerous for no reason, but if I have a reason, even such as a burrito, I go where I wish....I consider myself a reasonable person, you live your life as you see fit and I will do the same.
    Yet again, someone else found a more eloquent way to say what I was thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I think there is a force out there continually moving to corrupt society and destroy everything good. Some might quote the laws of thermodynamics saying that out of order come chaos. I think that it's something more sinister.
    Hey, I think I've heard of that guy...

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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Tell me any type of incident and / or case.... I'll give you examples from the 20's until now. Things are NOT that much worse.... stuff has always happened. Serial murders, etc all existed then as well. Gangs are the only possible thing.. they existed then, but not as stupid as they are now.

    I go where I want, when I want to go there. I tend to be a night person, so that's not unusual for me. I have a legal right to go there, and I will. I won't be intimidated into locking my door and staying inside. Period. never have, and never will.

    I hate to put it this way, but don't act like many people act at night....like they are a whimpy victim just scared to death something will happen, avoiding everyone.. taking the long route around or behind the cars. I walk like I own the friggin ground I"m walking on, and say "hi" to everyone as I pass them. Never had a problem, but always prepared if I did. The only times I have had an issue or situation was in the daytime.... LOL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    I hate to put it this way, but don't act like many people act at night....like they are a whimpy victim just scared to death something will happen, avoiding everyone.. taking the long route around or behind the cars. I walk like I own the friggin ground I"m walking on, and say "hi" to everyone as I pass them. Never had a problem, but always prepared if I did. The only times I have had an issue or situation was in the daytime.... LOL.
    That's funny, Eagleks. You're right - there's nothing like a genuine, big, toothy grin with eye-contact and a loud "HI HOWYA DOIN?". I've done it to bangers and it wierds them out. I usually get a shy smile and quiet "fine" back.

    Although there are times and places where you know there will be trouble. If I ever get knifed outside a bar at 2am, I just won't expect any sympathy. Yes, we should have a right to go wherever we please, but it's just not gonna happen in this life. Pioneers knew that you didn't go diddy-boppin thru bear country without a care in the world. Until the lion lays down with the lamb, this is the world that we live in, and common sense will dictate that there are places and times when you should not be there.
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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    To learn from someone else's incident, you have to be willing to look at someone's actions, pre/during/post incident and be willing to say things like:

    "The mall food court is a hangout for people on the way to, or coming from the drug clinic and is a popular spot for people who live in the halfway house to go. It is not a recomended place for you to be."

    "Bar X is a testosterone filled meat market with a heavy college patronage and some underage drinking goes on their. Talking to the wrong girl in that place may land you in a fight with a crew of frat boys, sports team members or something like that. The bar owner really doesn't control the door, and they let patrons get a bit too happy for their own good. Hanging out at that place is not smart..."

    Their is a difference between blaming the victim and saying that the victim could have done things better.
    However, I call stupidity & risky behavior when & as I see it.

    Additionally, I also don't like, nor usually believe, when people to claim "I was just minding my own business, when these guys just came up to me and started..."

    I lived in the ghetto for 3 years in Springfield, MA.
    I walked to & from synagouge at night every Friday & Saturday evening.
    I didn't look like I belonged, but I wasn't bothered...not because I'm so ferocious looking, or was carrying an M-4 on Belmont Avenue...

    Because I didn't start stuff with people.
    I didn't act arrogant.
    I didn't look down at or sneer at people I interacted with.

    (OK, not on the street, but at Law School I was a *****...but they were leftists, and they were frightened of me, so it was OK...let them hate so long as they fear...and fear they did.)

    I didn't have any street issues because I didn't start with people or act in a manner which precipitated a fight, so I'm skeptical of people who "Trouble seems to find" unless you run a high end watch business in LA and have the initials "L.T."

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    "Before you tell me times have changed. First off its not time thats changed its the people. Second did things change causing people to quit looking out for their neighborhoods? Or, did things change because people quit looking out for their neighborhoods and therefore allowing the bad guys to take over in the absence of the good folks.

    Michael"

    Evil exists. If we do not confront evil it prospers. Every time we say "this could be bad, I'll not take the chance."
    we have allowed it to continue.
    Oh yeh? Well this was sent from the scary black electrical box under my desk, so there!
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    Senior Member Array gilraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Remember when folks sat out on their porch at night? They didn't run inside and hide when some kids walked by. They yelled at the kids and told them to behave. Called them by name and threatened to call their parents on them.

    Before you tell me times have changed. First off its not time thats changed its the people. Second did things change causing people to quit looking out for their neighborhoods? Or, did things change because people quit looking out for their neighborhoods and therefore allowing the bad guys to take over in the absence of the good folks.
    When Hurricane Ike hit Houston in 2008, we lost power. In some places, for days. People sat around at night, on their porches, or going from house to house, checking on their neighbors. There was nothing else to do, with no power, and no electric or electronic entertainment.

    Losing our neighbors and neighborhoods started with radio, got worse with TV, and has gone to the dogs with computers and the internet, because no one goes to sit outside anymore, day or night.

    Would I change this? Yes. Would I want to do without electronic entertainment? Nope. I don't have an answer.

    Edit: Also, part of the problem started with the industrial revolution. Before then, most parents and kids spent most of their day together, on the farm, or in a family store. Values were passed down by constant interaction.

    When parents started leaving their homes to work somewhere else, the schools became the babysitters. Some were good, some were bad.

    I don't want to go back to pre-industrial days. The life expectancy was about 30 years.
    But we need to re-create family cohesion. Again -- how??? Got me.
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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Because I didn't start stuff with people.
    I didn't act arrogant.
    I didn't look down at or sneer at people I interacted with.
    If more people did this there would be fewer problems. Following these simple rules make you less of a threat to someones manhood. It also puts you on an equal footing with those you interact with. I always try to show respect to those I meet. A simple "Hi y'all how ya doin" goes along way in showing both respect and importantly a lack of fear.

    I would never go out of my way to attract danger. I am very quick to try to defuse a problem in the most peaceful way possible. That said I will not live my life in hiding. I walk for rehab during the late night or early morning during the summer because of the heat during the day. I used to need to go to the ATM at night before I retired because of the hours I worked. Same with grocery shopping.
    If something bad happens to me so be it. There is more to life than working and then going home to hide. That seems no better than a prisoner in a work release center.

    Michael

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    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    sorry..i doont think things have changed and i dont think its our fault because we're not out patrolling the streets and removing crime from it at night...people have been getting mugged ever since i can remember and i remember my dad having soem pretty interesting stories about the gang life in his youth...

    i feel like this thread is another version of we are sheepdogs bs thread...

    i dont think it could be explained any better than guantes put it...it is not unusual for me to wander a downtown street late at night if i have the occassion when i am visiting someplace that has a downtown (i'm small town now) and i will continue to do so because i love what makes a city alive at night...i dont avoid crowds and actually quite enjoy them...if nothing else you learn a lot about people comingling with them...all of them....

    if you have a right to be there and youre not just plain doing something stupid to bring it on yourself then i dont see the problem...the subject that touched this off was about a woman who some believe was where she shouldnt be but she seemed to prove that she was very able to handle herself in a less than desireable situation and come out on top...who shouldnt have been there?...i would say the teen who accosted her...but thats not a problem anymore...

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    i feel like this thread is another version of we are sheepdogs bs thread...
    No this was not the intent of the original post. Refusing to go into hiding and living as a prisoner is not being a sheepdog.
    if you have a right to be there and youre not just plain doing something stupid to bring it on yourself then i dont see the problem...the subject that touched this off was about a woman who some believe was where she shouldnt be but she seemed to prove that she was very able to handle herself in a less than desireable situation and come out on top...who shouldnt have been there?...i would say the teen who accosted her...but thats not a problem anymore...
    That was one of many posts I have seen where it seems blame was put on the victim.
    MitchelCT posted this..
    Their is a difference between blaming the victim and saying that the victim could have done things better.
    However, I call stupidity & risky behavior when & as I see it.
    I do agree with him on this point. We do need to analyze everything that was involved. The danger is when we take the easy way out and blame the victim. After all that if the one thing we can control. I worry that this attitude can carry over to where we are saying it wasn't totally the fault of the aggressor and some blame should be placed on the victim.
    The mugger/rapist/murderer couldn't help himself. If only the victim hadn't been wearing revealing clothing or driving a nice car or was wearing a fancy watch. Yes, the poor underprivileged soul was enticed into his crime by the actions of the victim. The victim could have prevented this tragedy had he been more thoughtful. Yes, the crime would never had been committed if the victim had only been more responsible in his actions. He in fact started it all. The aggressor was only reacting to what the victim did.

    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Tell me any type of incident and / or case.... I'll give you examples from the 20's until now. Things are NOT that much worse.... stuff has always happened. Serial murders, etc all existed then as well. Gangs are the only possible thing.. they existed then, but not as stupid as they are now.

    I go where I want, when I want to go there. I tend to be a night person, so that's not unusual for me. I have a legal right to go there, and I will. I won't be intimidated into locking my door and staying inside. Period. never have, and never will.

    I hate to put it this way, but don't act like many people act at night....like they are a whimpy victim just scared to death something will happen, avoiding everyone.. taking the long route around or behind the cars. I walk like I own the friggin ground I"m walking on, and say "hi" to everyone as I pass them. Never had a problem, but always prepared if I did. The only times I have had an issue or situation was in the daytime.... LOL.
    While I understand what you are saying, and pretty much agree...there is a new dimension to today's crime...DRUGS!
    Probably 90-95% of crime today involve drugs and booze. Now we have always had booze around where people do stupid things while drinking. Drugs, however, IMHO have made the criminal world much more dangerous.
    We also have a society (all of us included) where no one takes responsibility for their own mistakes (I'm saying usually...). Everything is always someone else's fault. Life wasn't like that decades ago.
    We have become a need it now society, we have enabled too many people into losing a strong work ethic. Life wasn't like that decades ago.
    Our world is becoming much more dangerous, and common sense tells us to stay away from obvious places of expected danger.OMOYMV
    If you decide not to avoid obvious danger spots...someone will take you up on your offer of "try me"...I choose not to be a victim, but that's me. I'm just sayin'...
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