What I think is the real cause of the Arizona shooting.

This is a discussion on What I think is the real cause of the Arizona shooting. within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Now this is going to get me a lot of flack but I think the real cause of the shooting was a lack of a ...

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Thread: What I think is the real cause of the Arizona shooting.

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array TerriLi's Avatar
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    What I think is the real cause of the Arizona shooting.

    Now this is going to get me a lot of flack but I think the real cause of the shooting was a lack of a decent mental health system, and a societal lack of awareness and compassion for mental issues.

    Where was the shooters family? Friends? Coworkers?? Hell the average guy who knew him?
    Why did no one see this man had problems and needed help, or did they see it and just ignore it?
    Honestly as family with mental health issues I know that our public mental health is crap, hell Georgia's is so bad that they are shutting it down do to the corruption, negligence, and lack of funding.
    Most insurance doesn't even cover mental health.

    If we truly wanted to stop this kind of thing from happening we would start up a drive to help our fellow man, because he is our fellow man, not because it is not just a problem that leads to so many horrible things but because he is our fellow man. We need to look past ourselves and our see a human being that is ILL, and needs our help.

    If you saw a person bleeding in the street you would help them, this man as horrible as what he has done still should have gotten help before this terrible tragedy. Our system requires the mentally ill to seek treatment, and someone should have done the right thing and gotten him help. How can the mentally ill know they are ill??

    He fell through the cracks, ones the size of six lane highways, and that angers me as much as the deaths of that little girl, that judge, and congresswoman.

    So if you want to truly do something about this then my advice is contact every senator congressman and local official about the state of our mental health system as a whole and try in someway to help these people before they hit the news with some horrible headline.

    I would rather see a thousand new government programs to help those with mental health issues then another headline like the one I saw today.
    I know not what this "overkill" means.

    Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    I would rather see a thousand new government programs to help those with mental health issues then another headline like the one I saw today.

    a simple "NO" covers this. the government is broke already. no matter what we can not keep spending like this.
    More government is never the answer.
    Last edited by tbrenke; January 8th, 2011 at 10:56 PM. Reason: formating
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
    There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.

  4. #3
    Distinguished Member Array TerriLi's Avatar
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    Then try community effort, something! What we have is evidently not working.
    Because a 9 year old will never see 10.
    I know not what this "overkill" means.

    Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.

  5. #4
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    What has happened, what is happening in the mental health arena is tragic. The shooter today is obviously deranged and very ill, so ill he could not have "belonged" to any particular political persuasion as has been suggested. It is a shame. A comparable situation is the Wheeler death on the East Coast - he was filmed and obviously incoherent and confused, yet no one helped him. We as a society are/have become desensitized to mental illness - we walk past, we ignore, we cross the street to avoid, we don't recognize and we want no responsibility.
    Richard

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    "You may think I'm pompous, but actually I'm pedantic... let me explain the difference."

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    Distinguished Member Array TerriLi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    What has happened, what is happening in the mental health arena is tragic. The shooter today is obviously deranged and very ill, so ill he could not have "belonged" to any particular political persuasion as has been suggested. It is a shame. A comparable situation is the Wheeler death on the East Coast - he was filmed and obviously incoherent and confused, yet no one helped him. We as a society are/have become desensitized to mental illness - we walk past, we ignore, we cross the street to avoid, we don't recognize and we want no responsibility.
    Thank you someone who gets, and sees the true problem.
    I salute you.
    I know not what this "overkill" means.

    Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.

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    Senior Member Array Free American's Avatar
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    The problem is that since the government has criminalized mental health issues people are less likely to report them. If the consequences for seeking mental help were not loss of gun rights (potentially) loss of work loss of driving priviliiges and loss of freedom (commitment) people would be more likely to seek the help.
    They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Previously known as "cjm5874"

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    VIP Member Array Stevew's Avatar
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    I agree. As soon as we quite performing labotomies folks started to come out of the closet. There are two kinds of crazy. 1. Rolls doo doo in to little balls. 2. Causes grave harm to innocent people.
    If you are going to be crazy you should fall int catagory 1 or be labtomized
    Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around laws. Plato

  9. #8
    Distinguished Member Array TerriLi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevew View Post
    I agree. As soon as we quite performing labotomies folks started to come out of the closet. There are two kinds of crazy. 1. Rolls doo doo in to little balls. 2. Causes grave harm to innocent people.
    If you are going to be crazy you should fall int catagory 1 or be labtomized
    Why not try a radical approach and try and help them like a human being they are, they are ILL, not some dog thats rabid.
    I know not what this "overkill" means.

    Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    TerriLi how do you get around the little problem of not being able to legally force someone to accept treatment? What do we do with those? If you can overcome that how do we pay for it?

    Michael

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    VIP Member Array Stevew's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=TerriLi;1846191]Why not try a radical approach and try and help them like a human being they are, they are ILL, not some dog thats rabid.[/QUOTE
    So we should coddle someone that acts like a rabid dog. Do you have any idea how many people we have tried to reform. If they want to be treated like a human they should treat others like humans. When we reform folks like that the outcome is that they usually end up killing a bunch of folks rather than being apprehended because they don't want to go back to the last facilty that they were released from.
    Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around laws. Plato

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    One thing I would say regarding mental health services of any kind. And that is, the person with the mental illness has to want help, and will participate with the program.

    Having worked in Emergency Medicine for 30 years, I can say that a large percentage of people with mental health issues do not seek help, does not comply with the programs they are put on with their mental health provider, and do not actively participate with the help they do get because a lot of the programs require either a change in lifestyle, habits and you have to want to participate in the treatment. People expect to go in and get a "magic fix" to their problem. So many of the psych medications they are put on has so many side effects that the patients don't want to stay on them, so they are noncompliant.

    The mental health community has enormous problems of their own as well. Red tape, policies which are a nightmare, a lot of misdiagnosis and on and on and on.... But that aside, the patient has to take some responsibility to really want to seek treatment and get better. Short of having everyone adjudicated mentally unfit by a judge and placed in facilities against their will, it's a huge problem getting people to accept and stay on effective treatment.
    -Bark'n
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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    TerriLi how do you get around the little problem of not being able to legally force someone to accept treatment? What do we do with those? If you can overcome that how do we pay for it?

    Michael
    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    One thing I would say regarding mental health services of any kind. And that is, the person with the mental illness has to want help, and will participate with the program.

    I worked with at risk kids for 6 yrs. I was never able to "make" any of them change. I was able to consistently enforce consequences that convinced some of them that they needed to change. But it was always their choice. You can never force someone to do what they don't want to do.

    As a free society, is it better to allow them the freedom everyone else has and accept the risks? Or lock them up against their will? When it's done with the patients consent, it's called treatment. Without consent it's called commitment. You have to overcome that little problem first.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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    Member Array UnklFungus's Avatar
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    I'll prolly get nuked for saying this, but I personally believe that this shooter was a plant, Manchurian Candidate. I think the fact that this just happened in a state that just allowed freedom of self defense is too much to mis. Esp after the recent congressional change and the promised upheaval. What are a few deaths when you are trying to suppress millions. I find it no coincidence that the socialist agenda started getting threatened and then this.
    Look for lots of knee jerk reactions on how we need to ban guns, bla blah blah.

    Flame on.
    “The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”

    Patrick Henry
    Quote Originally Posted by UnklFungus
    If it is ok to disarm legal citizens to reduce crime, then doesn't it stand to disband the military to prevent war?

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    Mental Health and Mental Illness is a very complex subject, and unfortunately is subject to generalizations and stereotypes which do little to further understanding of the true subject matter. Treatments and protocols for those that suffer from mental illnesses of various types have evolved over the centuries to the point where society generally respects the legal rights of sufferers for self-determination up to the point where they become a danger to themselves or others. That "line" can be blurred, hidden, and otherwise difficult to analyze, making actions and decisions difficult as many have pointed out, and indeed, such help and or aid may well be rejected.

    Recognizing the complexity of the issue, and recognizing that we are dealing with an illness which may in fact be treatable, and that we are dealings with humans, may help us keep this discussion on a more civil level. As with any Health Care issue (capitals intentionally added), there are a million sub-topics, many emotionally charged and morally charged, all within the framework of decision making powers and the ever-present affordability discussions.

    Having said that, our society is generally becoming ever more self-centered and internally focused in such a fashion that those that do not fit "our" "role model" or vision of what is "right" and "correct" behavior, are rejected and possibly debased to the point of dehumanization. As an example, I referred to the recent case of John P. Wheeler.

    John P. Wheeler was found dead in a landfill last week. He was a West Point Graduate, a veteran, an honorable man that worked in the Pentagon, had served three Presidents, was the first CEO of MADD, and worked to achieve the Viet Nam Veterans Memorial.

    Prior to his death, however, his behavior was aberrant, incoherent, and for all apparent intents and purposes, was significantly impaired.....

    Wheeler limped into a Wilmington parking garage. Coatless and confused, one of his shoes in hand, he bizarrely inquired about the location of his car, then declined offers of help, witnesses said.

    A day later, police said Wednesday, surveillance video captured Wheeler in downtown Wilmington again - this time looking "confused" inside the Nemours Building at 10th and Orange Streets about 8:30 p.m. Dec. 30.
    He may have been a victim of a crime, he may have slipped and fallen, he may have had a brain injury, but I just find it incredibly tragic that in his final days, John P. Wheeler was not helped in some manner, and I believe his specific case is symptomatic of a larger malaise in our country.

    There are certainly no easy answers, and I don't propose any answers myself, but I think it is an issue which deserves more attention, a rational and civil discourse, and more focus.

    That's probably more than you wanted to know about me, eh...........

    Off of soapbox........

    government has criminalized mental health issues people are less likely to report them. If the consequences for seeking mental help were not loss of gun rights (potentially) loss of work loss of driving priviliiges and loss of freedom (commitment) people would be more likely to seek the help.
    That may certainly be part of the situation.

    Another part may well be the state of of our health care industry, which tends to seek easy OTC solutions and avoids difficult expensive cases without compensation. Just thinkn'

    But, there is a problem of perception when guns and mental illness appear in the news together. It is just bad for law abiding citizens.
    Richard

    NRA Life Member

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    "You may think I'm pompous, but actually I'm pedantic... let me explain the difference."

    "Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."

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    Member Array Rightwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnklFungus View Post
    I'll prolly get nuked for saying this, but I personally believe that this shooter was a plant, Manchurian Candidate. I think the fact that this just happened in a state that just allowed freedom of self defense is too much to mis. Esp after the recent congressional change and the promised upheaval. What are a few deaths when you are trying to suppress millions. I find it no coincidence that the socialist agenda started getting threatened and then this.
    Look for lots of knee jerk reactions on how we need to ban guns, bla blah blah.

    Flame on.
    The way things are going, this would not surprise me...
    "You don't have a soul, you are a soul. You have a body." CS Lewis

    S&W .41 Mag - Colt DS - Ruger Single Six - Ruger Security Six - Buckmark-Beretta 21A - S&W 351PD 22 Mag- Spfld XD 9mm -- Plenty Of Long Guns--- Dry Powder and RCBS.

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