Swat video of officers firing 71 times on suspect.

This is a discussion on Swat video of officers firing 71 times on suspect. within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Wasnt there so certainly need more info but seems pretty excessive. Interesting to see how this turns out. SWAT Video Captures Officers Firing 71 Times ...

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Thread: Swat video of officers firing 71 times on suspect.

  1. #1
    Member Array radman's Avatar
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    Swat video of officers firing 71 times on suspect.

    Wasnt there so certainly need more info but seems pretty excessive.
    Interesting to see how this turns out.


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    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    Here's the story that I read on this yesterday. At that time there were doubts that the SWAT team even sounded the sirens & announced their presence, based on neighbors accounts. The neighbors obviously missed that part.

    Still, the preliminary info still sounds bad for the intent of the raid.

    Jose Guerena Killed: Arizona Cops Shoot Former Marine In Botched Pot Raid
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    I'm not saying good or bad or saying they were right or wrong, but you don't define excessive force by the number of rounds fired alone...
    I can dump my G17 empty in under 3 seconds, most everyone can unload a mag in surprisingly quick fashion

    if 5 officers see a threat to themselves and others and open up on a suspect at the same time with 30 round mag ARs and/or high-capacity pistols, 71 rounds is easily reached
    its always the round count that people start basing their opinions on....it needs to be what did the officers know going in, what did they see/hear, and did they react to it appropriately
    they knew they were going against a former marine, they obviously had info on him, possible weapons, etc since they were acting on a search warrant signed off by a judge, and the entire totality of the circumstances and what officers knew/saw/heard at the time is what the investigation will be based on

    whats shown in the video is not incriminating to the swat team, they were acting on a search warrant for drug trafficking and he pointed an AR at them after announcing and nobody replying/opening the door

    these investigation take time, a lot of time since they go through so much testing, blood, bullets, evidence, scene reconstruction, etc
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    Member Array radman's Avatar
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    Definitely. I understand the officers aren't going to, and understandably cant, wait there and say to the guy next to him "oh, are going to fire? OK Ill go after you. Oh wait, its his turn."
    No, they see a threat they will respond. And if 6 guys are lined up and see it at the same time. Well I would not want to be on the other end of that.
    But then again in the video, the one guy isnt even at the door but runs up and shoves his pistol in and starts firing.
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    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    The headline of 71 shots is irrelevant. From what I have read, Guerena had no criminal record, served two tours in a combat zone, and NOTHING illegal was found in home. He was murdered by government officials while his wife and four year old child were home, and while his six year old was at school.

    That's about as messed up as it gets. And this whole thing was over marijuana, which makes it even more of a joke. It is absolutely baffling to me as to how LE can get away with this on a regular basis all over the country.
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    What I'm more disturbed about is that there doesn't seem to be any evidence of the alleged crimes.

    He was woken from a dead sleep by his door being busted down, and he picked up a gun to defend himself.

    No-knock raids are executed every day on mere suspicion, regardless of guilt. This could easily be any one of us.

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    Except it wasn't a NKW, it was in full daylight, there were marked units with sirens all over, and so on. If the basis for the warrant turns out to be completely baseless, the investigation should focus on how the affidavit was prepared (and by whom) for the warrant. From what we can see thus far, the actual service of the warrant was pretty by the book, with none of the no-knock, no-announce, no way to tell they're "real" cops stuff that folks like to get all worked up about. And yet, here people go getting all worked up....
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    Yep, here we go.....hold on, gonna be a bumpy ride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Except it wasn't a NKW, it was in full daylight, there were marked units with sirens all over, and so on. If the basis for the warrant turns out to be completely baseless, the investigation should focus on how the affidavit was prepared (and by whom) for the warrant. From what we can see thus far, the actual service of the warrant was pretty by the book, with none of the no-knock, no-announce, no way to tell they're "real" cops stuff that folks like to get all worked up about. And yet, here people go getting all worked up....
    I'm not saying that this was a no-knock, but that they are executed all too frequently. I should have been more clear in my wording. But in this case, it may as well have been a no-knock, because the Marine was dead asleep after working a graveyard the previous night (source).

    I don't necessarily fault the officers on the scene, because they didn't necessarily have all of the information. The problem I have is with those who decide that an accusation made against a citizen in good standing warrants a paramilitary response. This guy didn't have a history of violence. He had no prior offences. The Sheriff's office has even stated that given the lack of evidence found on-site, no arrests would have ended up being made.

    The SWAT involvement is what was overkill, not the number of shots fired. And that this is a phenomenon becoming more and more common.

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    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    So people shouldn't "get worked up" about government officials killing citizens? I don't have an argument with the tactics used by the SWAT officers on the scene - and they obviously had to shoot him once the situation escalated, but I don't understand why it's not a big deal that an American citizen died for nothing. I agree with the point that the process needs to be investigated and not the tactics.
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    Even if the warrant was served "by the book," nothing so far still answers why emergency medical aid was withheld.
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    I agree I dont see and issue with teh tactics but the aftermath was terrible. Not only did they shoot teh place up but they KEPT THE PARAMDICS OUT FOR OVER AN HOUR while he bled to death and his wife screamed at them to help him. Also they claimed he shot first but he didnt I think i read another article that said another officer had a ND that stated teh shooting.

    The real issue here is this stupid war on drugs that was started by lobbyists and only succeeds in wasting taxes, terrorizing teh populace, and denying people with genuine addiction problems the ability to get help without ruining their lives

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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Except it wasn't a NKW, it was in full daylight, there were marked units with sirens all over, and so on. If the basis for the warrant turns out to be completely baseless, the investigation should focus on how the affidavit was prepared (and by whom) for the warrant. From what we can see thus far, the actual service of the warrant was pretty by the book, with none of the no-knock, no-announce, no way to tell they're "real" cops stuff that folks like to get all worked up about. And yet, here people go getting all worked up....
    Clearly the cops knocked, but do they really expect that people can answer the door in 6 seconds? What I could hear clearly was the siren, the inital knock on the door the breaking down the door and shots. I did not hear a clear proclamation that they were cops. They may have mumbled it, but it was not clear. Given that the knock from a gloved hand could be heard, voices should be able to be heard as well if they are loud enough to be effective. I think one cop shouting "POLICE, OPEN UP OR WE ARE COMING IN" loudly enough to be heard inside the building should be a required part of the procedure.

    If what is in the video is standard procedure, and we also saw it in the raid on the house where the guy with a golf club was shot even though he was not advancing on the cops, maybe we need to revisit what are appropriate procedures. I would rather that a guilty man go free than an innocent man be jailed or shot dead in his own house - YMMV.
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    Read the article(s). It is stated that the officers announced, loudly (the article states that it can be heard in the audio, though I admit it was difficult to hear because the mic was far away and the sound was overpowered by other noises) that they were Police, with a Search Warrant, Open the Door. That is standard verbage, and I have no doubt at all that it was stated loudly and clearly.

    And yes, it IS a big deal that an (apparently) innocent person was killed. It always is, regardless of the circumstances. My point about getting "worked up" was that folks almost immediately start in with the "outlaw no knocks!" (even though this isn't one) and a million other complaints about what are, in fact, immaterial to the situation. Something went wrong, if the victim was indeed innocent of what he was suspected/accused of. However, if was assume the basic facts are that a man pointed a rifle at police who were serving a warrant, the fact that the police shot him (no matter how many times) is NOT something to get worked up about. I am much more concerned with how an "innocent" person was the target of such a warrant service in the first place - judges and police administrators are not in the habit of authorizing these things just for the heck of it - there had to be some substantial evidence to put this all in motion. If that evidence was fabricated or "enhanced" through falsehoods or exaggerations...well, there's where the real problem lies. (Of course, I have nothing to suggest that any of this is the case, I'm just saying that the tactics of the service were well within reasonable norms based on what the officers serving the warrant, in good faith, believed to be the facts at the time.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Read the article(s). It is stated that the officers announced, loudly (the article states that it can be heard in the audio, though I admit it was difficult to hear because the mic was far away and the sound was overpowered by other noises) that they were Police, with a Search Warrant, Open the Door. That is standard verbage, and I have no doubt at all that it was stated loudly and clearly.
    I read the articles. I also watched the video. I could hear the muffled knock of the gloved hand on the door, but not any, ANY, shouting. Given the video evidence, I do, doubt that they were shouting who they were. Shouts would have been louder than the gloved hand knocking. I suspect a jury, presented with this video will also doubt they were shouting.

    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    And yes, it IS a big deal that an (apparently) innocent person was killed. It always is, regardless of the circumstances.
    We are in agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    My point about getting "worked up" was that folks almost immediately start in with the "outlaw no knocks!" (even though this isn't one) and a million other complaints about what are, in fact, immaterial to the situation. Something went wrong, if the victim was indeed innocent of what he was suspected/accused of. However, if was assume the basic facts are that a man pointed a rifle at police who were serving a warrant, the fact that the police shot him (no matter how many times) is NOT something to get worked up about.
    I concur this was not a no-knock raid. We don't know that the rifle was pointed at the cops. We know that the homeowner had a gun and that the safety was in the safe position. We know that the cops have changed their story on this at least once. If the cops say the gun was pointed at them, I would have doubts given their prior change of story. That does not mean they are wrong, but if they could not get the story straight whether the homeowner fired the gun at them, their credibility is not unimpeachable on where the gun was aimed. The fact that the cops shot him, without any apparent oral warning damn sure IS something to get worked up about.

    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    I am much more concerned with how an "innocent" person was the target of such a warrant service in the first place - judges and police administrators are not in the habit of authorizing these things just for the heck of it - there had to be some substantial evidence to put this all in motion. If that evidence was fabricated or "enhanced" through falsehoods or exaggerations...well, there's where the real problem lies. (Of course, I have nothing to suggest that any of this is the case, I'm just saying that the tactics of the service were well within reasonable norms based on what the officers serving the warrant, in good faith, believed to be the facts at the time.)
    From what I read earlier in this case, they were making the rounds of a neighborhood. I don't know if the cops lied to get the warrant, but their case would be strengthened if their story on the shooting was right from the beginning. I concur with you that the process on how they got this warrant needs to be evaluated. I also stick with my prior post that the overall warrant service process needs to be reviewed if we have gotten to the point we are kicking in doors and shooting innocent citizens. This was one of the precipitating causes of our revolution and the root cause for the 4th amendment.
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