Discussion about security

Discussion about security

This is a discussion on Discussion about security within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I am starting this thread because I don't want to further go off topic on another thread. Originally Posted by Sig35seven These are interesting questions ...

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    Member Array Ianator's Avatar
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    Discussion about security

    I am starting this thread because I don't want to further go off topic on another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    These are interesting questions and it is frustrating to say the least. However, your post is somewhat contradictory. All men would NOT be equal if you racial profile a segment of the population. I hear people speak about the importance of upholding the constitution and then turn around and want to deny constitutional rights to Muslim Americans and also Mexican Americans. Arizona wants a law that allows the police to stop you and interrogate you just because you look Mexican.

    I hear people on this site get so angry when the police stop them for OC'ing and they get asked for ID. "It's my constitutional right!" they say. I agree with them. Can you imagine the anger these same people would have if they were stopped simply because they 'look' a certain way? Something you can't change and will affect your entire race. Do you really see this as treating all men equal? Or is the constitution only for a select group to enjoy?

    So, my question to you would be...

    Since your NOT racist and yet somehow in favor of profiling... if you were allowed to profile what group would you profile? Muslims? People who 'look' Muslim? People who look like terrorists? Before you answer I'll remind you that shoe bomber was black and Jihad Jane was a white women with blue eyes and no, not "all terrorists are Muslim."

    You say your comments are not meant to offend anyone. It certainly isn't offensive to you and yours but think for a minute... what if you and your family were Muslims and you were in the target group and these suggestions of 'profiling' are now being directed at you and your family? Wouldn't you be offended then?
    I see what you are saying. I see how if you look at what I was saying in black and white terms it can seem like that. To answer your question; If I was a white man living in say, India. And there were white men constantly trying to blow up Indian airports and economic centers, constantly threatening them and advertising their hate and intent to try and kill them. I would not only expect to be paid extra attention to at the airport or train station, I would hope they do. Then, years pass, and everything returns to normal. And I disagree with you on this: Just because you pay extra attention to a race for a time, does not mean they aren't created equal. We are NOT in a state of peace right now. We are at war with an enemy that is constantly trying to sneak attack us. So I am talking about NOW, Wartime security. Not peaceful security.

    Arizona wants a law that allows the police to stop you and interrogate you just because you look Mexican.
    In my original post I did not say anything about illegal stops. I did not mean to elude to that. I was more speaking towards Airport security.

    Profiling is not the answer. But rather it is a TOOL which, if used properly, could greatly help reduce the terrorist activity in the US.
    Since your NOT racist and yet somehow in favor of profiling... if you were allowed to profile what group would you profile? Muslims? People who 'look' Muslim? People who look like terrorists? Before you answer I'll remind you that shoe bomber was black and Jihad Jane was a white women with blue eyes and no, not "all terrorists are Muslim."
    My very next sentence, look at my very next sentence... "This is a generalization"
    Like I said, its not the answer and indeed, there are terrorist and sympathizers that are all sorts of races. BUT, we are seeing a trend here. Muslim people are targeting America, not every Muslim, but in general they are the ones. So you think that every person should just be allowed to walk through? What if we were attacked over and over by people that were 7 feet tall. When a 7 foot tall person walked through security wouldn't you want to double check?!?

    My point is simply this: If a certain animal, race, group, or religion has shown in the past that they want to kill you, when you see one of those people going through security, do you treat them the same just because you don't want to offend them? Or do you take extra precaution because although they themselves may not be violent, others that belong to the same group have been? Or do you just hope that everything will turn out.
    Isn't that what carrying a gun is all about? Being ready for the unlikely, not standing there hoping for the best?

    That being said. If everything checks out, then move on. And yes, terrorists are going to get through. There is no perfect system. I just think we are shooting ourselves in the foot by being so PC all the time.

    I do not know the end all fix all. All I am saying is that the American government is too worried about hurting someones feelings and not enough about acutally protecting this country.


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    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    I wasn't aware that cops in Arizona were able to pull over Hispanic persons just because they looked a certain way. I thought that upon being pulled over for a legitimate reason that applies to all citizens, a person must show actual proof of citizenship.

    How is that a bad thing? Laws are laws.

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    Isn't the Arizona law only applied if you are stopped for a legitimate reason? Anything else would be a violation of Fourth Amendment rights, I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    I wasn't aware that cops in Arizona were able to pull over Hispanic persons just because they looked a certain way. I thought that upon being pulled over for a legitimate reason that applies to all citizens, a person must show actual proof of citizenship.
    They can't - that is another non-Arizonan's misconception or mis-statement of AZ laws regarding citizenship issues.

    In a nutshell, the AZ law (still being challenged) provides for law enforcement to inquire about citizenship status from people that are detained for the normal reasons - traffic stops, loitering, the usual "reasonable" circumstances. The object of the officer's attention need not show "proof of citizenship," they need to show that they are legally entitled to be in the United States.

    As far as so-called "racial profiling" is concerned, the Border Patrol guys I've some some training with said they fin d plenty of Asians, Indians, Eastern Europeans and Canadians here without proper documentation. But this close to the border, guess what - most of the undocumented ones are from Mexico.
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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    The basic principle here is that if you have done nothing wrong, you should be subject to no greater level of suspicion than that applied to any other person.

    I'd love to profile, but that isn't the nature of our system of government. What happened in Oslo is a strong argument for the idea of treating all people equally with respect to security.

    Remember that your media and pundits and the Fox News channel have been very busy drumming up your fear and hatred of Muslims. It is your responsibility as a free, clear-thinking citizen, to avoid being sucked into simple frames of demagoguery.
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    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    It amazes me that we live in a time when we are afraid to call the enemy the enemy. I find myself becoming more politically incorrect as I get older. We as people want to believe that people are generally good. The idea of an organized and LARGE group of people out there that wants us dead just topples some peoples entire belief system. Guess what, it happens. It happened in the 1930's and 40's in Nazi Germany and it's happening again. Don't believe muslims want you dead? Google it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodle View Post
    It amazes me that we live in a time when we are afraid to call the enemy the enemy. I find myself becoming more politically incorrect as I get older. We as people want to believe that people are generally good. The idea of an organized and LARGE group of people out there that wants us dead just topples some peoples entire belief system. Guess what, it happens. It happened in the 1930's and 40's in Nazi Germany and it's happening again. Don't believe muslims want you dead? Google it.
    Amen friend. When the Nazi party wanted to take over the world it was easy for Americans to identify them as evil. The response was clear.

    Now we have a "Religion" as the enemy and people here are confused as to who the bad guys are. Guess what? The bad guys are Muslims...ALL MUSLIMS. For those who have studied the Qur'an there is no doubt.

    The Muslim holy text orders ALL Muslims to conquer the world for Allah. They are to conquer by any means necessary, be it peaceful or violent, but conquer they must. Even the "peaceful" are here to conquer us. They are just going about it a different way. They are trying to take over one community at a time and change the US from the inside out. One proven method is by out-breeding us in the hopes that in 50 years we will be the minority and they will control the ballot box.

    We as Americans have a hard time calling any religion bad because we are a nation founded on religious freedom. BUT...The Islamic way of life isn't just a religion, it is a complete way of life. It is a social, economic and legal system. It is not just a religion. The total reality of Islam is a foreign concept to Americans.

    I have spent time in Islamic countries and from my own personal experience with them I can say this. They don't think like we do. They don't really understand us and we don't understand them (and we probably never will). It is a completely different lifestyle paradigm.

    The only real solution is genocide and that is something we in the modern Western world can't stomach. I tell you this though, if Muslims had the ability to do it to us, they would. They would offer you the simple choice, convert to Islam or die. If you were really lucky you might just become a slave instead of being killed.

    Now I'm sure one of you forum members are going to chime in here and say that I'm a bigot, a hater or a jerk, but the facts are facts. If you haven't studied the Qur'an or the Islamic paradigm then you are talking out of your butt. Educated replies welcome.

    (Hint: If you don't know what a Surah is or you don't know what abrogation means as it applies to Surahs and the Qur'an then you have no business replying to this post)
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Amen friend. When the Nazi party wanted to take over the world it was easy for Americans to identify them as evil. The response was clear.
    We like to think that, but they were like most of us then, (Caucasian Americans), there were many Americans of German heritage and others who sympathized, and there was by NO MEANS A CLEAR RESPONSE.

    We fiddled and diddled while the UK fought, while France went down, and would have stayed out of it except that Germany declared war on us. They did this immediately after we were attacked by Japan. It was probably their greatest error of strategic judgment as without them declaring war on us, we would have focused all of our attention on Japan, and Europe would have been left to deal with its problems on its own--something it was not able to do.
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    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    Call me crazy but on Tuesday morning September 11, 2001 when I was stationed on board USS Miami, damn near everyone on board was issued a weapon. Sure felt like someone declared war on us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    We like to think that, but they were like most of us then, (Caucasian Americans), there were many Americans of German heritage and others who sympathized, and there was by NO MEANS A CLEAR RESPONSE.

    We fiddled and diddled while the UK fought, while France went down, and would have stayed out of it except that Germany declared war on us. They did this immediately after we were attacked by Japan. It was probably their greatest error of strategic judgment as without them declaring war on us, we would have focused all of our attention on Japan, and Europe would have been left to deal with its problems on its own--something it was not able to do.
    Perhaps you are correct, I recall reading that Hitler had many supporters in England as well. That, of course, was before the Blitz and before Pearl Harbor in the US. In the end though the US was unified and resolved to deal with the problem. We had a clear enemy.
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    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

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    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Perhaps you are correct, I recall reading that Hitler had many supporters in England as well. That, of course, was before the Blitz and before Pearl Harbor in the US. In the end though the US was unified and resolved to deal with the problem. We had a clear enemy.
    I think this is what we are approaching, hopefully (unified resolve I mean)

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    Senior Member Array Tzadik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Remember that your media and pundits and the Fox News channel have been very busy drumming up your fear and hatred of Muslims. It is your responsibility as a free, clear-thinking citizen, to avoid being sucked into simple frames of demagoguery.
    I kind of thought that certain Muslims have been "very busy drumming up (our) fear and hatred of Muslims."

    Truth be told I have little against the religion, but the majority of Muslims that actually speak up, seem to pluck my nerves.
    Unless they can publicly condemn the behaviour of those outspoken few, how else are we non-muslims to respond?

    Any group has a responsibility to itself to hold its members to behaviour appropriate to upholding the reputation of the group.
    Wether its religion, gun owners, or members of a racial ethnicity, if you see someone doing something wrong you should speak out against it,
    especially if it effects your reputation or expect to suffer the collective backlash.



    forgive my rant please...insomnia
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    I kind of thought that certain Muslims have been "very busy drumming up (our) fear and hatred of Muslims."
    Well said.

    I'm at work now and I don't want to type anything that could be considered hate speech here at work. But I can say this....There was a reason for the Crusades. A bunch of rich, well to do European nobles didn't decide to walk all the way to the Middle East without a good reason. The Islamic "movement" had crossed into Spain from North Africa and was moving into SE Europe from Turkey. The Muslims had overrun a good portion of the Eastern half of what had formerly been the Roman Empire. They had put tens of thousands of people to the sword and the European Christians decided it was time to push the threat back.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

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    While this can make for very interesting discussion, I'm sure somebody will come along and pitch a fit when their panties get all twisted because somebody mentioned some key words and phrases. Please don't be that person. Lets keep the discussion at an academic level so the thread can stay open as the subtopic at a basic level is borderline forbidden here on DC.com
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Ahh, SIXTO my friend. You have hinted at the root of our problem. To call our war on terror a war against a specific religion is anathama to the values of most Americans. To fight against a specific religion is verbotten. Even to talk about it is taboo to most Americans. It just goes against who we are as a people, free, kind and peace loving.

    IMO the enemy has been and will continue to use our kindness against us. I just wonder what it will take to wake most Americans up from their slumber. IMO a little education about what the Qur'an actually says would be all it takes. Too bad most folks are too lazy to bother with it.

    The real question is how do you fight against a misconception? How can you convince a person that is ignorant yet opinionated?
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

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