Is our democracy doomed?

This is a discussion on Is our democracy doomed? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Naufragia Step one in recovering our republic from the mire of democracy should be the repeal of the 17th Amendment. This would ...

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naufragia View Post
    Step one in recovering our republic from the mire of democracy should be the repeal of the 17th Amendment. This would put the states back in control of the US Senate, allowing it to resume its intended purpose as a brake on the thoughtless whims of the giddy, vulgar masses.
    Are you sure you want that? Don't you think there are plenty of pols who would consider our pro-gun-owner's positions among the giddy and vulger?
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Are you sure you want that? Don't you think there are plenty of pols who would consider our pro-gun-owner's positions among the giddy and vulger?
    Sure, many of the pols would, but if you look at what the state legislatures - to whom the senators should be and would be reporting - are doing, it is pretty pro-gun. I am for repealing the 17th - see post 11.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    That might also be the best argument against politicians. So what gets left? Military dictatorships?
    Could easily come to that. Stay prepared.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    if I am not mistaken, the house of representatives was even supposed to elect the senate.
    You are mistaken. It is the state legislature that has that duty. Article 1, Section 3 starts off with "The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the Legislature thereof for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote."
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    That might also be the best argument against politicians. So what gets left? Military dictatorships?
    'Valid question. The best answer that I have is one-term limits. Yes, there will still be the obnoxious goob that stuffs their pockets while in office, but they all will know that they'll have to get a day job when they're done, among the people whom they've represented.

    I've even heard career politicians argue that the system is too complex for one-term representation, which I find laughable. The reason it is so complex is that the career politicians have made it that way. After a few generations of one-term representation, the system will get simplified to accommodate such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpertz1 View Post
    In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

    "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."
    Looks like your buddy took some liberty in claiming de Tocqueville's quote for his own.

    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of governement. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years."

    Alexis de Tocqueville
    Rock and Glock and Tzadik like this.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  8. #37
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    Some interesting and creative ideas for positive change. All of which have been mentioned or even endorsed in public before. Usually by some 5th string politician that had no chance of ever getting elected. Given that and that any change currently would have to be voted in by and approved by both federal, and state, legislatures who have been "democratically" elected by our current array of voters; Does anybody really think there is one chance in a million for any improvements that are not the result of some sort of military or economic insurrection?
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  9. #38
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    Just a note and fair warning; the very nature of this thread is walking a thin line with regards to the no politics rule. So far, all the posts have been good, Thank you for that!

    DO NOT be the one who makes it go off the edge.

    NO POLITICS! That will be strictly enforced.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Just a note and fair warning; the very nature of this thread is walking a thin line with regards to the no politics rule. So far, all the posts have been good, Thank you for that!

    DO NOT be the one who makes it go off the edge.

    NO POLITICS! That will be strictly enforced.
    I've noticed this as well and wish to thank all for their current willingness to respect my first wish to keep this generic and not jump in to blast any specific party. IMHO all of us and those that represent us have an equal stake in or responsibility for where we currently find ourselves as a country.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpertz1 View Post
    In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

    "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

    "The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

    From bondage to spiritual faith;
    From spiritual faith to great courage;
    From courage to liberty;
    From liberty to abundance;
    From abundance to complacency;
    From complacency to apathy;
    From apathy to dependence;
    From dependence back into bondage."

    The Obituary follows: Born 1776 - Died 2008
    It wouldn't hurt to read this several times.

    Professor Joseph Olson a professed moderate democrat, of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the last Presidential election:

    Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29
    Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000
    Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million
    Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2 McCain: 2.1

    Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory McCain won was mostly the land owned by the responsible taxpaying citizens of the country.

    Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low income tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."

    Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the
    "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

    If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal
    invaders called illegal's - and they vote - then we can say goodbye to the USA in less years then you want to imagine.

    This is truly scary! We are not a democracy, we are a Constitutional Republic . Someone should point this out to Obama. But of course we know he and too many others pay little attention to The Constitution.

    There’s a lot at stake on Nov 2012.
    Only partially true... Snopes is your friend... this email's been circulating quite a bit. The only good thing about it is that it should make you THINK about what's going on, not that it's factual.

    now that I got THAT out of the way...

    Is it ignorance? Or, is it apathy...

    The US population is the wealthiest population in the world... We are the "2%ers (of the wealthiest in the world)" The average of the "Middle Class" in the world make about $3-5000 PER YEAR per person. Low income on a world basis is $500 a year per person...

    We have homes (including apartments) that on average are at least 10X bigger than the rest of the worlds "homes." We have paved roads everywhere... we have cars to put on them...

    We feel entitled to these things... yes, we work to earn them... and pay for them... and we pay taxes to maintain the infrastructure that allows us to have good use of the stuff we have ...

    Fact is, we don't pay enough in taxes to maintain them properly and certainly not forever...

    But regardless of that all, we don't have much time to pay attention to what our government is doing "for" (or to) us...

    Even those of us here pay close attention to things that may affect our 2A rights... but how many of us are ACTIVELY involved in whether there are price supports for wheat or milk or tobacco, and how much those supports are? How many of us have been to any city council meetings (unless maybe a ban on firearms in city limits or buildings or parks was proposed)?

    We are the land of plenty... we are so busy "enjoying it" that we are not paying close attention to what our government is doing...

    The founders had a proposal that representatives to the house could be "drafted" . . . everyone would have a chance to be a representative... and the house would elect the senators (that part was done away with, and the draft of reps never did make it into the constitution.)

    We don't have time to care... we have:
    Kids to take to soccer, hockey, ballet, baseball, and on and on...
    Big screen tvs to watch big brother, survivor, Idol, soaps, what have you... and
    DVRs to catch up on what we missed.
    We have 8 hour jobs, with a 30 minute commute,
    On vacation, we just want to get away from it all...
    sattelite radio, sattelite tv, gps, meals to go eat out, no time left for keeping an eye on gubmint...


    As long as I got a job, a McMansion, two suvs in the drive, and so on... who gives a rip... Life is goooo---oooood.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    'Valid question. The best answer that I have is one-term limits.
    I'm afraid that is one of those easy answers which seem to make sense but can't possibly work. As I've mentioned elsewhere, we live in an exceedingly complex world. It takes time to gain the experience needed to be able to make sensible legislation. One reason both Houses of Congress have so many committees is that complex issues must be dealt with by folks who specialize in those issues. Would you really want an inexperienced person who is going to serve only one term trying to oversee the CIA or NSA?
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigkahuna View Post
    When our nation was formed, the government was meant to be a cross section of the population.Farmers, shopkeepers, doctors, carpenters teachers were all supposed to help make up our government. Today, our government is 98% lawyers. The only thing these guys know how to do is argue. We need to get a more diverse element in the government.
    Well we have a smattering of ex- medical doctors too. Somehow voters think that this qualifies them to know something about economics and trade, defense and privacy. If they served on the committees where their specialized knowledge could be useful-- e.g., oversight of FDA, HHS, maybe that would make some sense. When they pontificate about foreign policy they are no more enlightened than any of the rest of us here entertaining ourselves.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I'm afraid that is one of those easy answers which seem to make sense but can't possibly work. As I've mentioned elsewhere, we live in an exceedingly complex world. It takes time to gain the experience needed to be able to make sensible legislation. One reason both Houses of Congress have so many committees is that complex issues must be dealt with by folks who specialize in those issues. Would you really want an inexperienced person who is going to serve only one term trying to oversee the CIA or NSA?
    You're a politician, aren't you? See second part of my post.
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  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Looks like your buddy took some liberty in claiming de Tocqueville's quote for his own.

    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of governement. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years."

    Alexis de Tocqueville
    Nice catch. Have to add him to my reading list.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  16. #45
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    The United States is a republic not a democracy......... just saying.

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