Is our democracy doomed?

This is a discussion on Is our democracy doomed? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Maverickx50 So one vote for maybe nothing. A legitimate point of view and possible given history. Or maybe history was right just ...

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  1. #61
    Member Array Mr7point62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    So one vote for maybe nothing. A legitimate point of view and possible given history. Or maybe history was right just off in terms of timeline? In any case I'd hope your right but not too confident.

    What I'm personally seeing is more and more disagreements between states and federal control. I'm even seeing break downs in policies within states. Northern vs. Southern California, Wisconsin, just to name a couple. I think that at some point states will begin to ignore federal authority. will not defer to federal court decisions. will maintain their own direction with respect to many issues they feel are critical to their own safety and best interests. Federal Governments will in turn move in to take over but then more states will follow suit and as this moves forward federal government control will become less and less of a factor. With a majority of states no longer deferring to federal control a new type of federal government more in tune to states rights will have to be formed. This could be a slow and even sometimes bloody process but time will tell. This forming of a new federal government would be a hopeful best result. other possibilities much more disastrous could also be in the realm of possibility.
    I personally would love to see more states stand up to the Federal Government.. I personally live in SC, and I know that my state isnt scared to tell the Fed to shove off, as I have seen Nikki Haley (our governor) already do.... especially with the new Boeing plant:)

    As for the bloody process mentioned...I wont say too much:) however I know whose side I will be on!:)

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  3. #62
    Member Array Naufragia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Are you sure you want that? Don't you think there are plenty of pols who would consider our pro-gun-owner's positions among the giddy and vulger?
    Absolutely, I want that. ksholder has replied as well as I could on the matter:

    Sure, many of the pols would, but if you look at what the state legislatures - to whom the senators should be and would be reporting - are doing, it is pretty pro-gun. I am for repealing the 17th
    Step two would be to strip Washington of its power to regulate interstate commerce.

    (Why is my post count stuck at 136? Not that it matters, I suppose.)

  4. #63
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koontzy View Post
    I personally would love to see more states stand up to the Federal Government.. I personally live in SC, and I know that my state isnt scared to tell the Fed to shove off, as I have seen Nikki Haley (our governor) already do.... especially with the new Boeing plant:)

    As for the bloody process mentioned...I wont say too much:) however I know whose side I will be on!:)
    Lincoln and his congress illegally quashed that a long long time ago.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naufragia View Post
    Step two would be to strip Washington of its power to regulate interstate commerce.
    That would require a constitutional amendment as this is in the enumerated powers clause. What needs to happen is to better redefine this clause so that the Marshallites (John Marshall and all his minions over the years) are undone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naufragia View Post
    (Why is my post count stuck at 136? Not that it matters, I suppose.)
    I wondered this same thing at one point. There are certain topics - this is one - that don't give you thread count points. The gun related topics do.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

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    Member Array Mr7point62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Lincoln and his congress illegally quashed that a long long time ago.
    Thats if the state agrees to live under that "Unconstitutional Law" that Lincoln and them enacted....However it would be hard, but not impossible..

  7. #66
    Member Array Mr7point62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koontzy View Post
    Thats if the state agrees to live under that "Unconstitutional Law" that Lincoln and them enacted....However it would be hard, but not impossible..
    Kind of like how some people in Texas still thinks they can succedd, but really according to their own signing they cant....Matter of fact texas was allowed to succed, but then saidthey wouldnot, but agreed to split the state itself into 4 possible 5 states...

  8. #67
    Member Array Naufragia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    That would require a constitutional amendment as this is in the enumerated powers clause. What needs to happen is to better redefine this clause so that the Marshallites (John Marshall and all his minions over the years) are undone.
    True. However, I think that "redefining" (in other words, defining Commerce Clause as it was originally intended) would require an amendment.

    I wondered this same thing at one point. There are certain topics - this is one - that don't give you thread count points. The gun related topics do.
    Oh. I see. Thanks!

  9. #68
    Member Array Mr7point62's Avatar
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    In case anyone wants the info I posted on Texas: here it is:

    While some Texans still harbor fantasies about secession, it is not a serious issue. It’s an urban myth that Texas still has that right – most scholars don’t believe that. When Texas entered the union in 1845, it was with the understanding that it could pull out. However, according to the Texas State Library and Archives Commission, in the end, Texas negotiated the power to divide into four or five (there’s some debate) additional states at some point if it wanted to, but did not retain the right to secede. here is a link to the 1866 ordinance declaring secession and here are the operative words: “and the right heretofore claimed by the State of Texas to secede from the Union, is hereby distinctly renounced.” Passed 15th March, 1866.

    Additionally, the U.S. Supreme Court case Texas v White (1869) established the principle that there is an existing prohibition against any state seceding from the Union without the consent of the other States.

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naufragia View Post
    True. However, I think that "redefining" (in other words, defining Commerce Clause as it was originally intended) would require an amendment.
    That or a vastly different judicial temperment on the SCOTUS.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    The arguments presented, i.e. only 50% pay taxes, they want to take the money from those that earn it and redistribute it [are].... effective propaganda based on half truths.
    It's a whole truth that "nearly half of all American households don't pay federal income taxes". It is a whole truth that "sixty percent of the income tax is paid by 5% of U.S. households". IOW, 95% of U.S. households contribute less than half of total income tax revenue - the largest source of federal revenue. And it is a truth, call them what you will, that those 95% of U.S. households vote for politicians who redistribute wealth.

    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    The statement that "those who own the country should rule it" is their real objective and in fact, 95% of the wealth in this country is held by 5% of the population. This can't be allowed to stay this way and history has shown that when wealth is so heavily concentrated that the nations soon fall.
    No Conspiracy Kool-Aide for me, thanks, again.

    That the rich are rich is not a cause of poverty, not a problem with democracy, nor a cause of our broken debt ceiling. And the wealth of the rich is not a solution to those problems because total confiscation of all wealth of every American with a net worth in excess of a million dollars would plug our deficit for less than a fiscal quarter - not even touching our debt. Revenue is a problem of minute proportions or less.

    No, the problem is with spending. That is the problem with democracy - rule of the poor. That is the problem with our broken debt ceiling.

    "Those who own the country should govern it." John Jay says that people with a stake should determine the course of government and that a stake in the country be a requirement for a cictizen to vote. The indication of stake in an agrarian society is ownership of land. In a service society, it is productivity and investment (personal or financial or both) in the economy.

    Your statement, "those who own the country should rule it", is the golden rule, i.e., "those who have the gold make the rules". This is not what Jay says. You are basing your consipiracy theory on misquote.

    No, OP, we and our democracy aren't doomed. We had a big party since the 50's. And though we are adrift and bereft of leadership in a storm of natural economic law, we'll be alright after the morning after. Because the beauty of democracy is that every cloud has a silver lining of orderly response to the problems that democracy causes. Even now, the debt-ceiling-compromise congressional supercommittee is finding ways to cut $1.2 trillion from the current deficit by Thanksgiving.

    I like Churchill's quote and surprised that noone has posted it:
    Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  12. #71
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    In a speech in the House of Commons on 11 November 1947, Winston Churchill said:

    No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  13. #72
    Member Array JohnInFla's Avatar
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    With respect to States standing up to the Federal Govt ...



    The concept of "Nullification" is very much on point for this discussion ... Nullification: Answering the Objections


    More and more, this idea is gaining (regaining?) traction and the home page for this site ... Tenth Amendment Center ... is a great place to learn more.
    Tzadik likes this.
    "Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid."
    John Wayne

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    In a speech in the House of Commons on 11 November 1947, Winston Churchill said:

    No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
    Maverickx50, great minds do think alike.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    We remain what we are since the 1700s, the grand Americian experiment. Just be a good citizen, follow your conscience, when you peak at what your neighbor has don't envy what he has,more than make sure your neighbor has enough. Stay moral, spend your money wisely (the only real vote you have) and it really does not matter what government we are, because we will be a good one.
    NRA Member
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    Glock G31 & G33 with .357 Sig 125 GR. SXT Winchester Ranger

  16. #75
    Member Array Mr7point62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnInFla View Post
    With respect to States standing up to the Federal Govt ...



    The concept of "Nullification" is very much on point for this discussion ... Nullification: Answering the Objections


    More and more, this idea is gaining (regaining?) traction and the home page for this site ... Tenth Amendment Center ... is a great place to learn more.
    Thanks for the info..

    I know that alot of states right now are fighting ObamaCare......good to learn some more info:) thanks

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