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No property is worth a life?

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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  2. #47
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Personally, I think any nogoodnik should or could be shot on sight. I'd have no problem with that. However that is not the world be live in, nor it is the rules we are dealt. I can't think of a single piece of property I own that is worth getting in a shooting over. Its not that I wouldn't want to, heck, maybe I actually would... but it it truly worth it all things considered? No, its not. Castle Doctrine or whatever state law you want to debate with it doesn't matter. If I shoot to save my car, I can pretty much promise its going to cost me far more than the cars worth and a heck of a lot more than my insurance deductible to shoot the car thief. Bottom line is, it just isn't worth it. The personal satisfaction might be though.
    You are correct that the costs to you for shooting the thief would probably not be worth it. That is because your life is worth more than the property. The question was is the life of the thief worth more than that same property.

    Michael

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I think the real question is, if we are able to stop a thief in the act, WHY CAN'T WE? Why am I required by law to allow them to get away?
    Cuz you don't live in Texas!

    But seriously now think about it..... Most politicians are...... Lawyers!
    It is job security for them. Sure if we killed every bad guy we caught stealing our stuff we would need them to represent us for the Grand Jury proceedings ( here in Texas) but after we are no billed it is over. If we don't kill 'em they can be represented dozens of times!
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    You are correct that the costs to you for shooting the thief would probably not be worth it. That is because your life is worth more than the property. The question was is the life of the thief worth more than that same property.

    Michael
    My answer to the question was no, but society has a different answer. It doesn't really matter what you or I think.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    When did this idea first come to be considered a fact? Originally I believe it was meant to imply that a person should not foolishly risk their life for property than can be replaced. It did not mean that you should not protect what you own.

    I would never risk a loved ones life for property. They are more valuable to me than any possession. However, the life of a criminal attempting to steal that property has no value to me. It has no value to society.
    Example: my car has a value to me and society. It allows me to earn a living and pay taxes. A car thief has no value. He brings nothing of value to society.

    We have taken a saying and twisted it around to mean something totally different that what it started out meaning.

    Michael
    My grandfathers US cavalry saber that he carried during the punitive expedition and in ww1 is, and I would die fighting anyone trying to take it from me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    My answer to the question was no, but society has a different answer. It doesn't really matter what you or I think.
    I think the portion in bold is why we are no longer free in America. We have enslaved ourselves under a mountain of red tape, laws and feel good fixes. Sadly, we have no one to blame but ourselves for letting it happen.

    In the old days the person on the spot was given much more leeway in deciding what was right for his own way of life.
    Stubborn, SIXTO, Guantes and 2 others like this.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I think the portion in bold is why we are no longer free in America. We have enslaved ourselves under a mountain of red tape, laws and feel good fixes. Sadly, we have no one to blame but ourselves for letting it happen.

    In the old days the person on the spot was given much more leeway in deciding what was right for his own way of life.
    I can't argue with that...
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I think the portion in bold is why we are no longer free in America. We have enslaved ourselves under a mountain of red tape, laws and feel good fixes. Sadly, we have no one to blame but ourselves for letting it happen.

    In the old days the person on the spot was given much more leeway in deciding what was right for his own way of life.
    We have attempted to accomplish through regulation what we have been uable to do through evolution. To make ourselves more "civilized". It has not worked.
    mcp1810 likes this.
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  9. #54
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    We have attempted to accomplish through regulation what we have been uable to do through evolution. To make ourselves more "civilized". It has not worked.
    Maybe true in the grand scheme of things... in some ways... we are more "civilized" than we were. Heck, "back then" there were bears and wolves, and bad guys too. Now we only gotta worry about the bad guys, well for the most part...

    Uncle George said it... "Free men are never equal, and equal men never free." We have tried to make all men equal, and have only fettered ourselves with regulations that make thugs and criminals "more equal" than the guy trying to defend himself, or his property.

    It's certainly frustrating that the criminal has more "rights" than the victim in some cases.

    Could I kill someone trying to steal my vehicle or commit a felony theft from my property..? I think, your example of restraining him from doing so (and escalating if need be) is very valid ... and might work in my state... I also agree that he's likely not to escalate if faced with a gun... and that he might run. and both of those are okay with me.
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  10. #55
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    My answer to the question was no, but society has a different answer. It doesn't really matter what you or I think.
    Exactly my point. When and why did our society change its values?
    I remember kids, when I was young, getting hurt while vandalizing someone's property. No one ever considered blaming the property owner and making them pay for the injuries. It was the opposite that happened. The vandals injuries and the property damage were paid for by himself or his parents. Now days our society says that the property is not important and makes the property owner pay for the injuries to the vandal.

    It used to be that if a criminal was killed or injured most people put the blame on the criminal. You would hear, "well if he hadn't been trying to steal that he would still be alive". Now what you hear is, "why did that bad man have to kill him, the property could have been easily replaced."

    What caused this change? This is what I do not understand.

    Michael

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    There are undoubtedly many reasons. I'll give you one or two.

    A misguided sense of responsibility. The concept that society as whole bears some if not major responsibility for the criminal conduct of individuals has gained a certain amount of acceptance. On that basis it is unjust to inflict the ultimate punishment for something that we bear at least some responsibility for.

    There are no losers, everyone has equal value. A small example is youth sports. Everyone is not equal and some individuals are losers relative to their sport. Professional sports illustrate this truth. From a broader perspective, applying it to life it is also untrue. Criminals do not have equal value to society as honest hard working individuals.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  12. #57
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    However, the life of a criminal attempting to steal that property has no value to me. It has no value to society.
    Example: my car has a value to me and society. It allows me to earn a living and pay taxes. A car thief has no value. He brings nothing of value to society.
    I can't agree more with this statement. Obviously some people disagree with the concept based in the legal ramifications of killing a criminal. But legal ramifications aside, when just talking about value, I would say my car has a lot higher value than some drugged out criminal who steals and kills with no remorse in order to perpetuate his own lifestyle. In fact, I'd say my toothbrush has more value than that person. So when people use the phrase "It isn't worth taking a life over your TV." Well, I suppose not if you look at the big picture and ramifications. But if you are just talking about worth as a measure of value, I'd say that is wrong.
    atctimmy likes this.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  13. #58
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Exactly my point. When and why did our society change its values?
    I remember kids, when I was young, getting hurt while vandalizing someone's property. No one ever considered blaming the property owner and making them pay for the injuries. It was the opposite that happened. The vandals injuries and the property damage were paid for by himself or his parents. Now days our society says that the property is not important and makes the property owner pay for the injuries to the vandal.Michael
    +1. I know a guy that was drunk on a college campus and was using a ladder without permission and if I'm understanding the story correctly, he was there to vandalize the property.

    In the end, he fell off of the ladder and broke his neck. He became a quadriplegic and after winning a million dollar settlement from the college, he went to live the good life in Florida.

  14. #59
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    There are no losers, everyone has equal value. A small example is youth sports. Everyone is not equal and some individuals are losers relative to their sport. Professional sports illustrate this truth. From a broader perspective, applying it to life it is also untrue. Criminals do not have equal value to society as honest hard working individuals.
    +1 again. All men are NOT created equal and its a lie that our society has bought into hook, line and sinker. We all have different strengths and weaknesses. Some men are stronger than others, some are in possession of more wisdom than others and some have talents and abilities that are superior to that of their peers.

    As much as I agree with some points that have been made about the merit that lies in a man reaping what he sows, I also have to confess in full humility that if I am to be compared to the perfect standard then I fall short as well. Does not the shepherd rejoice more over the one stray that returns home than that of the 99 that stayed? As much as we are not equal when it comes to our abilities, we are all unfortunately a lawbreaker if we break but one law and which of us have not done as much? This is not to say that jay walking and grand theft auto are equivalents but it is to say that I am a recipient of grace. Receiving as a gift that which does not belong to me, how can I leave with the attitude that I am content because I have gotten mine and continue to have a heart with no concern for others that have not been awarded accordingly when I'm called to deliver good news? A man doesn't have to stay in his current condition and there's more to his life than what his eyes are seeing in his current situation. If he continues to stay in his state of depravity, let his heathen brethren take him out of the world so my hands don't have to be stained by his blood. Let his family not accuse me of taking his life and rather feel pity for him because I tried to save it.

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