The thin veneer of civilization...

This is a discussion on The thin veneer of civilization... within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Hopyard Oak-- Two advantages of being old is I have a memory that spans at least 60 years if not 70; plus ...

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Thread: The thin veneer of civilization...

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Oak-- Two advantages of being old is I have a memory that spans at least 60 years if not 70; plus memory of all the stuff mom and dad and grandma and grandpa told me.

    Being a "fella" who almost decided to be a HS History teacher, I've had my share of formal education in history and more importantly, I've been an on and off avid reader of everything from historical novels to biography.

    We certainly are having our problems these days, but there has been NO time in our country's history when we didn't have our problems. What we are going through is the small stuff compared to lots we have been through in the past.

    We have made some awful mistakes, but we haven't yet approached a time to panic.

    1) I like it a lot better than when we were under constant threat of nuclear war at any moment.
    2) I like it a lot better that most folks receive their appropriate civil rights and suspects don't get beaten to near death in the jail house; as was once not too atypical.
    3) I like it interest rates aren't 13% on home mortgages.
    4) I like it that most of the countries in S. America are actually not dictatorships of the extreme right or fighting civil wars from the counter of the extreme left.
    5) I like it that there really is relative peace in most of the world.
    6) I love our computer age and the changes and advances in communication.
    7) I love the advances we've made in medical diagnosis through electronics and advanced imaging.
    8) I am cheered that we are aware of and attempting to control or regulate or outlaw a variety of things folks used to ignore or laugh at: drunk driving; child porn; date rape.
    9) I'm thrilled that our government actually tries to keep our air and water clean and safe; our workers safe; neither issue having received any attention until the Nixon administration.

    I can go on and on. We certainly have a political system that was designed for the horse and buggy days and not for the early 21st century; it certainly isn't doing anywhere near what the country needs to be done, but everyday our justice system holds trials and hearings; our numerous guardians guard us.

    We are far from done in. Hurting, yup. We just lost between 6 and 12 trillion dollars of individual wealth through a combination of preventable greed and stupidity, but we are not in a depression or technically in a recession.

    We are going to recover if we don't do stupid things in fear and panic.
    Well said sir!
    "Don't start none, won't be none!"

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  3. #17
    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    "Just dealing with it" as you put it, used to be known as being an adult and acting like one.
    We apparently have different understandings of what real depression is. I'm not talking about people who have the blues or are just "down".

    This country started becoming over medicated at the same time the Libs started systematically trying to destroy the traditional family unit.
    Is it your position that anti-depressants are part of a liberal conspiracy to destroy the family? "MUHUHAHA! Once we get everyone on Prozac, it's only a matter of time before gay bestiality incest is the norm!"

    This country has never been pure bred. But what has changed a great deal is this: immigrants used to come here and do everything they could to become AMERICANS. They strove to fit in. they spoke English.
    I grew up in a town that always had a large Hispanic population (partly from migrant farm workers and other undocumented workers) and is now close to half Hispanic. Virtually all of them speak English. You are correct that some do not assimilate, but that again has always been the case, hence the creation of the various "-towns". It takes time to adjust to a new culture. There's no reason to believe that won't happen again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    but then, for all this peace breaking out as per The Better Angels, violent crime is on the uptick in (ahem) "civilized countries" like Britain, and it certainly seems as though we are actually seeing more of it here... could just be the press, though.
    Keep in mind, any uptick in crime is still within a very very low point compared to the past. And you are correct, it is the press that has created the perception that crime is rampant. I'm sure you know the old axiom, "If it bleeds, it leads." Worse still, the "newsworthy" crimes are usually the worst and most freakish, which leaves the impression that they are typical.
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    Hopyard,

    All you say is true... and sort of related to the physical laws ... "for every action..." We have had some remarkable advances in science and medicine in the last decade, exponential in velocity of change...

    The same exponential growth is seen in the chasm between the wealth of the rich and the earnings of the not so rich. Wealth cannot be lost as you say in your last paragraph, (real) wealth, once created, merely changes hands... It is quite possibly this truth which will cause the problems that may come...

    But, on the whole, we in the US are all the "one percent" of the wealthy in the world... many of us (unlike yourself) forget that and neglect the counting of blessings, as it were...
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
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    I believe "Civilization" comes in cycles also, if in doubt you can always check history.

    Read the following
    America: a Nation in Decline? | CaseStudies

    "Life without God is like a unsharpened pencil - it has no point."

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    We apparently have different understandings of what real depression is. I'm not talking about people who have the blues or are just "down".



    Is it your position that anti-depressants are part of a liberal conspiracy to destroy the family? "MUHUHAHA! Once we get everyone on Prozac, it's only a matter of time before gay bestiality incest is the norm!"



    I grew up in a town that always had a large Hispanic population (partly from migrant farm workers and other undocumented workers) and is now close to half Hispanic. Virtually all of them speak English. You are correct that some do not assimilate, but that again has always been the case, hence the creation of the various "-towns". It takes time to adjust to a new culture. There's no reason to believe that won't happen again.
    No I'm not saying antidepressants are a Lib conspiracy, what I'm saying is that as soon as the Lib mentality took over in the Medical community and created the huge sham that is modern psychiatry, we have antidepressants for every damn thing. They have kids as young as 10 on them for God's sake. That is stupid beyond measure. Medicating boys for being a little hyper and wanting to be rambunctious is asinine and if you believe otherwise then I have no use for you either.

    And yes, there have always been "-towns" such as Chinatown and Little Italy. But, those people still learned English back in the day. And they were some of the first to volunteer for service in the armed forces when WWII broke out. The same is not true now. The immigrants who refuse to speak English or learn it live spread throughout cities. They do disparage the USA while accepting money in the form of welfare from it. They fly the flag of the country they fled in their yards and on their porches. It's shameful and shouldn't be allowed.

    My grandfather and grandmother on my Dad's side came from Italy. When they immigrated here he refused to allow anyone to speak Italian in his home. It had to be English, or as he called it American, in his house because that is what he was once he came here.

    My grandparents on my Mom's side were an odd pairing. He was Russian, she was German. Much the same in their home. My Grandad had a harder time with English and as a result I would hear some Russian when he got frustrated or upset and his mind was working faster than his mouth could keep up in English. But he always strove to be American. You never saw a bigger 4th of July celebration that what my Grandad would throw. He was American from the moment he set foot in the USA until the day he died. He served in the US Navy in WWII. He was proud to be American.

    This is the kind of thing I do not see the immigrants of today replicating. They come here and expect America to emulate their native lands and that is exactly opposite of how it should work. It doesn't take that much time to adjust to a new culture if you come here WANTING to be American and not to just take as much advantage of the US Government free money train as you can. We have become weak and spineless and it is contributing to our degradation as a sovereign nation.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Hopyard,

    All you say is true... and sort of related to the physical laws ... "for every action..." We have had some remarkable advances in science and medicine in the last decade, exponential in velocity of change...

    The same exponential growth is seen in the chasm between the wealth of the rich and the earnings of the not so rich. Wealth cannot be lost as you say in your last paragraph, (real) wealth, once created, merely changes hands... It is quite possibly this truth which will cause the problems that may come...

    But, on the whole, we in the US are all the "one percent" of the wealthy in the world... many of us (unlike yourself) forget that and neglect the counting of blessings, as it were...
    Perhaps you misunderstood my paragraph and meaning, or perhaps I was not clear. The opposite of what you wrote is true. A physicist from Chicago who, about 20 years ago, had his 5 minutes of fame as he received an award and was interviewed on TV, stated that wealth is quite unlike matter which can't be created or destroyed. He said that wealth was damnably difficult to create and ridiculously easy to destroy.

    We have destroyed between 6 and 12 trillion dollars of wealth. That translates to roughly 18,000 dollars to 36,000 dollars per man woman and child in the country. Nonetheless, we are not in a depression or a technical recession. We are with great difficulty weathering things. We've seen a great deal worse many times over in 200 + years, including the early years starting with Adams and Jefferson's.

    There is a lot we can do to re-create our national and individual wealth; though I am concerned that our political system is not up to the task given the changes in communication from the past to today. It wasn't possible in 1821 (picked a date arbitrarily) to transfer billions of dollars to a foreign country with the click of a mouse. That kept capital here, invested here, and job creation here.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  9. #23
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    I think it's more like the myth of civilization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    No I'm not saying antidepressants are a Lib conspiracy, what I'm saying is that as soon as the Lib mentality took over in the Medical community and created the huge sham that is modern psychiatry, we have antidepressants for every damn thing. They have kids as young as 10 on them for God's sake. That is stupid beyond measure. Medicating boys for being a little hyper and wanting to be rambunctious is asinine and if you believe otherwise then I have no use for you either.
    I'll let the "psychiatry is a sham" thing alone, too off topic. However, clinical depression is a physical illness, it's a malfunctioning brain. The age doesn't matter as long as the drug is safe. And yes, anti ADD drugs have been over-prescribed, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong. I briefly taught elementary school, and I saw what kind of miracle the drugs can be for kids who truly need them. One such child had an idiot mom who didn't always give her child her medication. On those days, the girl was quite literally unteachable. She was unable to focus on anything, was incredibly disruptive, and basically out of control. On the days when she had her meds, she wasn't just calmed down, she was engaged, worked hard, and clearly enjoyed learning. As a teacher, I didn't want a zombified student, and that's not what the drugs did.

    And yes, there have always been "-towns" such as Chinatown and Little Italy. But, those people still learned English back in the day.
    Do you have any source to back this up? Or is it just your impression?

    They fly the flag of the country they fled in their yards and on their porches. It's shameful and shouldn't be allowed.
    I wonder if those immigrants hate the first amendment as much as you.

    My grandfather and grandmother on my Dad's side came from Italy. When they immigrated here he refused to allow anyone to speak Italian in his home. It had to be English, or as he called it American, in his house because that is what he was once he came here.
    And like I said, I've been around a huge number of Mexican immigrants, and they overwhelmingly spoke English. We are just hurling anecdotes at each other.

    This is the kind of thing I do not see the immigrants of today replicating.
    Based on what evidence?

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    I'll let the "psychiatry is a sham" thing alone, too off topic. However, clinical depression is a physical illness, it's a malfunctioning brain. The age doesn't matter as long as the drug is safe. And yes, anti ADD drugs have been over-prescribed, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong. I briefly taught elementary school, and I saw what kind of miracle the drugs can be for kids who truly need them. One such child had an idiot mom who didn't always give her child her medication. On those days, the girl was quite literally unteachable. She was unable to focus on anything, was incredibly disruptive, and basically out of control. On the days when she had her meds, she wasn't just calmed down, she was engaged, worked hard, and clearly enjoyed learning. As a teacher, I didn't want a zombified student, and that's not what the drugs did.
    I'm sure there are cases that call for ADD drugs but I think they are much, much fewer than what is actually being prescribed.

    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    Do you have any source to back this up? Or is it just your impression?
    No source, just my own experiences as a kid with an immigrant family background. I am reporting what I saw and have seen more recently with my own eyes. Obviously, with your mindset, that isn't good enough for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    I wonder if those immigrants hate the first amendment as much as you.
    You are now officially treading on thin ice with me buddy. NEVER question my love of nor devotion to ANY of the right enumerated in our Constitution. I served my country voluntarily in the US Military. Did you? Simply because I have a disagreement with you about this issue is no reason to assume I have a dislike for the first amendment. I am not wondering about you on many levels. This is a response more typical of a leftist.

    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    And like I said, I've been around a huge number of Mexican immigrants, and they overwhelmingly spoke English. We are just hurling anecdotes at each other.
    What part of the country are you referring to your experiences in?

    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    Based on what evidence?
    Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. I said that this is not the kind of thing I see the immigrants of today replicating. This statement is based on what I have seen and experienced myself. If that isn't good enough for you, then I suppose that is just too bad. I have conducted no scientific studies that might satisfy your criteria.
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