The face (and belly) of Occupy - Page 2

The face (and belly) of Occupy

This is a discussion on The face (and belly) of Occupy within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Hummmm...lemme see. The arrest rate (nationwide) for the OWS protesters just topped the 5,000 number. Arrest numbers (nationwide) for the millions of Tea Party members ...

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  1. #16
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    Hummmm...lemme see. The arrest rate (nationwide) for the OWS protesters just topped the 5,000 number.

    Arrest numbers (nationwide) for the millions of Tea Party members - "0"

    Clean up costs (nationwide) for the OWS protesters is now 10 Million & counting.

    Tea Party - Leaves every rally site cleaner than they found it.

    and....they dare to call OWS The Tea Party of the LEFT?

    Google Search Occupy Wall Street Diseases

    Now in the veterinary journal - Outbreak of parvovirus - even the pet dogs of the OWS protesters are getting fatally ill.


  2. #17
    Member Array imjustron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    A better question is;

    Who pays their fair share?

    Also, as a side note some posters have been dangerously close to political posting... one in particular. Be careful how you make your point
    Even better question is...what is a "fair share", and who has the right/authority to make that determination?
    I am a hard-working self-employed conservative Christian white male gun owner. How else can I tick you off today?

  3. #18
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    I would say the rich likely tend to stimulate the economy pretty heavily based on ability to do so.

    I would also speculate that a lot of the Occupy folks would like to be in a socialist nation so they would not have to know that there are people that have more than them.
    Tzadik likes this.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by imjustron View Post
    Even better question is...what is a "fair share", and who has the right/authority to make that determination?
    That is a question now isnt it... I say the fair share should not be based on what on earns, but a hard number. What really bothers me is the notion that somebody who does is punished, while those who do not are rewarded.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array kapnketel's Avatar
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    OK, here's my take on the OWS crowd. I see three types involved:

    The just plain bitter/angy jealous people who are mad at the world and are envious of anyone with anything more than them. My personal estimate of their numbers-25%.

    The people with all kinds of causes, from saving the whales to neo nazis, anarchists, etc. Another 25%.

    The balance claim to be truly "reform minded" in speech claiming that the inequalities in wealth need to be addressed. These are the people who really scare me. They are against our basic capitalist system (although many proclaim they are not). To me, by definition, OWS = anti capitalism. While the talk is about corruption, their real beef deep down is that they do not believe that the "wealthy" really deserve or earned their wealth. They are against the entire group of "1%" without differntiating between any of the "1%" (except to skip over the 1% that supports their cause, ie. Soros, Moore etc. Another subject for another day). Its the old story of the guys on the shop floor claiming they work harder than the CEO. What they cannot accept is that our system places economic value on all activites and values each one differntly. If, for example, teachers make 50K per year and the CEO of a company makes 500K, then our system has valued the work of the CEO higher than that of a teacher. You may not like it, but that is how capitalism works. It does not mean the CEO is a better person than the teacher, just that society has valued their work in economic terms differntly. This is the concept that the OWS cannot accept. Since they cannot get society to raise the economic value of the teacher, they want to pull down the value of the CEO via tax policy. We all make decisions in our life that effect our future economic value, and sometimes circumstances beyond our control also impact our economic value. I mean, a student who has 50K in loans and an art history degree made a bad decision and now cannot obtain the economic value they would like. I'm sorry, it is not society's job to make certain you are successful. Capitalism allows you many chances to succeed and many to fail.

    We live in a country that celebrates success, be it on the movie screen, TV or sports. We love a winner. So why do they want to punish peple that in an economic sense are "winners"?
    I'd rather be lucky than good any day

    There's nothing that will change someone's moral outlook quicker than cash in large sums.

    Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.

  6. #21
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    The problem is that our entire tax system, which is broken, creates corruption, obfuscation, unfairness, and misappropriation. The basis of this problem lies in the overcomplexity of the system. Tax breaks. Tax cuts. Tax incentives. Tax credits. What do these terms really mean? It means, tax breaks for those individuals and businesses whom the biased government wants to cherry pick. It means tax cuts for individuals and businesses whom the government cherry picks to receive. It means tax incentives for individuals and businesses whom the biased government cherry picks to receive. ...It means the exact same thing for tax credits, as well. Why is this bad? It means corporations will fudge their numbers to lower their tax burden through obfuscation. They have droves of tax attorneys that do nothing more than figure out ways to beat the system and take advantage of every "gray area" that is available. This system begs individuals and businesses to legally evade their taxes.

    If the utterly and completely unfair tax credits, tax breaks, tax incentives, and tax cuts in general were thrown out the window, we could have a system that wouldn't breed corruption and unfairness. We are living with a broken system. It doesn't need reform - it needs to be tossed. We need a system that is fair to all people, and all businesses alike. Where everyone pays their fair share. A system where capitalism isn't frowned upon. A system where sloth isn't rewarded.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    That is a question now isnt it... I say the fair share should not be based on what on earns, but a hard number. What really bothers me is the notion that somebody who does is punished, while those who do not are rewarded.
    I agree 100%. I like the formula of dividing the cost of running the country by the population and sending out the bills. Problem is that this is a capitation tax and, therefore, unconstitutional. If we could find a way of doing something similar, but based on the census it would be Constitutional.
    Last edited by ksholder; December 1st, 2011 at 09:10 PM. Reason: Stupid IPhone Spell Checker Changes Words
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  8. #23
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    I'm gonna step in it here:

    1. If that was my kid, I would be proud. No, that kind of dress and makeup aren't my style but I think that kind of self-expression takes courage. Add to that, he's standing up for something he believes in (Not that I necessarily believe in). I think people have always tried to trivialize other people based on appearance. I always find it funny that many people who proclaim to be defending the Bill of Rights don't defend someone else's rights when it doesn't suit them.

    2. There is only one way to solve the problem this country faces and no-one will do it. Let everyone have a TRUE equal opportunity to fail. The issue I take with *most* "Republicans" is that they seem only interested in propping up the rich. There IS an enormous wage-gap and "Trickle Down" economics (if it ever really worked) is broken beyond repair.

    Here's an example: "Mr. Goldman-Sachs VP" gets his 5 million dollar bonus. (Notice that the money wasn't given as a raise to the janitor or the receptionist) Where does that money go? He knows how to minimize his tax burden, so he keeps most of it. Does he spend it with the middle class? Does his pool-cleaner get a raise? Nope. It sits in a bank that proceeds to loan it to the working gal who buys a car she can't afford at an interest rate that funds the 5 million dollar bonus of the bank VP! If anyone can show me that any significant amount of that money goes to the guy who's working 2 jobs and still can't pay the bills for his family, I'll gladly give you a 'Stan Lee no-prize'!

    Here's another example:
    I mean, a student who has 50K in loans and an art history degree made a bad decision and now cannot obtain the economic value they would like. I'm sorry, it is not society's job to make certain you are successful. Capitalism allows you many chances to succeed and many to fail.
    The problem doesn't SOLELY exist with the 'art history major'. Someone decided to loan that money to him/her. When that person can't find a job, they default on their loan. We tell the worker that they were responsible for their decision and then give tax dollars and tax breaks to the lender (and then tax the borrower for the "written-off" amount). If the lender knew they were *really* on the hook, they wouldn't have lent so much. If the school knew they couldn't get that much from the student (really, the lender), tuition wouldn't have been so much. It might have even been (*GASP*) affordable without loans! If the tuition wouldn't have been so much, the university wouldn't have been able to pay their president and board millions.

    At the end of the day, corporate profits (subsidized by tax dollars, by bail-out or breaks) are choking-out the middle class. Preserving the "credit system" will only lead to more collapses, each one bigger than the last. I think that protesting corporate greed is a nice idea but nothing will ever really happen until the playing field is level for everyone. It's not fair when some people get an advantage that most people do not. THAT's what I think OWS is about.

    P.S. : No, I don't think we can legislate our way out of this. If we let corporations do whatever they want to, they'd rape this country and we'd all be indentured servants. If we raised minimum wage to a "living wage", well...welcome to your $20 Big Mac. Neither "side" has the answer.

    This was all a bit oversimplified and there are PLENTY of other issues at stake, but that's just my take on Occupy.

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  9. #24
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    "There exists in this country a plot to enslave every man, woman, and
    child. Before I leave this high and noble office I intend to expose this
    plot"

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    (Killed seven days later)
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  10. #25
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    "[that kind of dress and makeup aren't my style but I think that kind of self-expression takes courage]"

    NAW, That's Boy George ; )
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  11. #26
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    It's all a sham anyway. Modern political campaigns are expensive. The people who pay for those campaigns have a lot of money. You don't go to $1,000 a plate dinners when you make twelve dollars an hour. It's stupid to think that an elected politician isn't going to remember the folks who attended those dinners and financed his campaign regardless of his political party. Democrats suck up to the rich just as much as Republicans do. So the Democrats propose raising income taxes on the über wealthy knowing that the vast majority of people at that level of wealth derive their income from capital gains and not a payroll check. Capital gains taxes of course will remain at 15%.

    Republicans are opposed to all tax increases. They just nickle and dime you to death with add on "fees" on everything.
    mr.stuart likes this.
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  12. #27
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    There is only one way to solve the problem this country faces and no-one will do it. Let everyone have a TRUE equal opportunity to fail.
    So you would agree that all welfare, unemployment benefits, Medicare and Medicaid be eliminated? Then failure would have very real consequences.

    Here's an example: "Mr. Goldman-Sachs VP" gets his 5 million dollar bonus. (Notice that the money wasn't given as a raise to the janitor or the receptionist) Where does that money go?
    So you are one of those that believes the wealthy do not desreve or earn their wealth? The VP got a bonus because he earned it by handling hundreds of milions of dollars of his clients' funds, maintaining if not increaseing the shareholders stock value and significantly working towards keeping thousands of his fellow workers employed. The janitor, while probably a very nice fellow, did not do that.

    If we let corporations do whatever they want to, they'd rape this country and we'd all be indentured servants.
    Really? I agree that there are some bad actors and we can all point to examples of bad behavior, remember that a corporation is merely a shell operated by normal everyday people like you and me. Just because you are a corporate employee you do not become Dr. Evil. Also, the stockholders are you and me, either by direct ownership or via our 401K's, etc. Corporations do nothing independent of the people who work there. I have worked for several internation al corporations (still do) and I have never seen anydishonest or criminal behavior in 30 years by any of my companies. In fact, at the slightest hint of imprpiety things get escalated very quickly.
    I'd rather be lucky than good any day

    There's nothing that will change someone's moral outlook quicker than cash in large sums.

    Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Lotus222's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chefjon View Post
    At the end of the day, corporate profits (subsidized by tax dollars, by bail-out or breaks) are choking-out the middle class. Preserving the "credit system" will only lead to more collapses, each one bigger than the last. I think that protesting corporate greed is a nice idea but nothing will ever really happen until the playing field is level for everyone. It's not fair when some people get an advantage that most people do not. THAT's what I think OWS is about.
    I agree with everything you have said in this statement, except what is written in bold. This is absolutely not what occupy is about. Your idea of "leveling the playing field" and an OWS's view of "leveling the playing field" is vastly different.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by chefjon View Post
    I'm gonna step in it here:

    1. If that was my kid, I would be proud. No, that kind of dress and makeup aren't my style but I think that kind of self-expression takes courage. Add to that, he's standing up for something he believes in (Not that I necessarily believe in). I think people have always tried to trivialize other people based on appearance. I always find it funny that many people who proclaim to be defending the Bill of Rights don't defend someone else's rights when it doesn't suit them.
    In highschool I had a mohawk, was part of the punk movement, was definitely an outsider.

    I grew up, started dressing for the workplace, but still listen to Punk & Industrial, etc... Punk is a frame of mind, not a mode of dress: to quote the Dead Kennedys: "You ain't hardcore cuz you spike your hair when a jock still lives inside your head."

    That kind of "self-expression" is not about individuality or courage. If a crowd all have dreads & face paint it is not individuality.
    jumpwing likes this.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    That is a question now isnt it... I say the fair share should not be based on what on earns, but a hard number. What really bothers me is the notion that somebody who does is punished, while those who do not are rewarded.
    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    I agree 100%. I like the formula of dividing the cost of running the country by the population and sending out the bills. Probable is that this is a capitation tax and, therefore, unconstitutional. If we could find a way of doing something similar, but based on the census it would be Constitutional.
    I don't agree. If a person or corporation has made millions off the system and the politics they bought, they should be more in debted to America then the person that is more then likely your customer at some point It should be totally based on income because that is a definate number of what you have gained and taken out of America. You can claim what you put back by "deductions" Duh!

    It is very difficult for me to understand how some people want to go back to the King/peasant form of government. Do you all think you are going to be "kings" or something? What is it that actually convinced you to think this way?

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