Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 - Page 2

Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6

This is a discussion on Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I think he is totally misunderstanding it. It simply means I will make a decision and SHOOT to save my life and others instead of ...

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 59
Like Tree28Likes

Thread: Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,891
    I think he is totally misunderstanding it. It simply means I will make a decision and SHOOT to save my life and others instead of waffling with the decision because you are afraid it might be ruled a non justified shooting. The key word is SHOOT.
    atctimmy and Tzadik like this.


  2. #17
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,807
    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I understand your point and agree that most probably believe they will be acquitted. I also believe that many would rather live a lifetime in jail than to die. That I do not understand.

    Michael
    It means people would rather take their chances with a jury of their peers than to die at the hands of an assailant.
    atctimmy and Tzadik like this.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  3. #18
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    44,840
    It's a concept...
    Do I desire to go to prison? Heck no...
    Do I want to die? Not really...

    Am I going to retreat from possible actions when confronted by some dirtbag because I'm trying to weigh 'death :vs: prison'? Actually, I doubt that one will have time to argue that scenario out in the mind prior to taking action.
    Am I going to refer to the thinking process (12 or 6) prior to defending my wife or grandchildren from some dirtbag? At the time that harm presents itself to me or my family, my thinking will be entirely upon SD/HD, not 12/6.
    Last edited by RETSUPT99; March 3rd, 2012 at 09:53 AM.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array JoJoGunn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    2,928
    It is just a statement of a concept and not reality.

    Nobody would really contemplate before shooting some thug, being judged by six as opposed to be carried en-coffin by six pall bearers to the grave site. That, my friends would be the last thing I would even be thinking.

    My whole approach to self defense is that I am not willing to give up what little of life I have for the fear of being prosecuted and put into jail because of the outcome of the self defense.

    I don't really want to die unless of course it is my time and there will be no self defense sufficient to stop it.
    "A Smith & Wesson always beats 4 aces!"

    The Man Prayer. "Im a man, I can change, if I have to.....I guess!" ~ Red Green

  5. #20
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    under a rock in area 51
    Posts
    2,548
    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    I agree with the OP. Prison would suck.
    the problem with death is it is so permanent as prison is not

  6. #21
    Moderator
    Array Rock and Glock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado at 14,650'
    Posts
    12,592
    It is a Warrior's mindset, as is the following:

    Japanese Samurai warriors were taught to “die before going into battle.” Learning to accept death as a plausible outcome of a battle, a warrior was able to fully give himself to the battle. If he was dead already, what could there be to fear? It gave a Samurai warrior freedom to give his all and often was the defining factor leading to victory.
    Lifetime in prison is death by a thousand cuts.............
    Last edited by Rock and Glock; March 3rd, 2012 at 11:49 AM.
    Hopyard and wmhawth like this.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    900
    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    the problem with death is it is so permanent as prison is not
    People are adamant how he is misunderstanding it and what not. He's not. For many cases it would be better have to deal with the courts than be dead, but there would be some cases where death would be better. Spending 15 years in prison would completely disrupt any semblance of the life you once had. You would be in ruins financially from dealing with legal issues and not working for 15 years, you would be 15 years older and probably in much worse health, and your mental health could probably range from mildly depressed to crazy depending on your experiences in the can.

    The phrase gets used to much. Everybody in this thread is talking about clear cut examples when it applies. For example, "I'm walking down the street and somebody tries to stab me with a knife so I shoot him." Well, duh, you obviously shoot somebody in a situation like that. You also wouldn't have to worry about it too much because it is self defense.

    However, I hear the phrase used in questionable scenarios more often. For example, "I see a damsel in distress so I'm going to go play LEO and try to act like a hero, and when stuff gets out of control, I pull out my gun and shoot somebody." Well, you may feel morally obliged to act in certain scenarios, but there could be consequences using a gun in questionable situations.

  8. #23
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,667
    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I hear that comment a lot on here. I cringe every time I hear it. Does everyone really feel that way? Would you really go jail than die as a free person? Maybe if I had kids or family who depends on me I might agree with the statement. But, being a lifelong bachelor with no dependents there is no way I can honestly say I would rather give up my freedom than to die.

    I have always questioned the mentality of criminals who agree to life in jail to avoid death. What kind of person would willingly accept a lifetime of bondage?
    Am I missing something? Where am I going wrong?

    Michael
    You are not going wrong. I always considered that saying trite and too glib. I'm not at all sure that I wouldn't prefer to be
    killed on the spot than go to jail. Its unfortunate that our laws often don't square with the realities of life.

    I've made up my mind where the risk benefits fall, and here are my boundaries: 1) Home invasion; I'll take my chances on the protections of the castle doctrine. 2) Outside the home: If alone, I'll take my chances on mercy of the criminal or H2H with or without some additional weapon such as pepper, club, flashlight; gun as absolute last resort during an active beating or stabbing. They can have my wallet with all 3 dollars and same for my 10 y.o. gas guzzler. 3) Outside the home with family present: I'll take my chances with the criminal justice system.

    Having seen prisoners working at prison industries up close, no thank you. Thirty to 90 days of it would be enough for most crimes, and those deserving more probably should just be uh, "exiled," to a place from which you can see Russia.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  9. #24
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,667
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I dont see it the same way that you do.

    It think that it means that you intend to live through an encounter...and if it results in going to trial, at least you have lived to get tried, rather than be killed on the spot.



    Most people fear death. They really fear the unknown, so for them any alternative is better than dieing.

    If you dont fear death, then it makes no sense to live in bondage or to compromise your beleifs. Its a warrior mindset that few people possess. If you read up on the stories of Medal of Honor winners, most of them came to the conclusion that they would be killed, so therefore they did what was needed to be done. In their minds, they were already dead, so they had nothing to lose. To them, the phrase" I'd rather die standing than to live on my knees" was more than just a phrase, it was a way of life.

    Those people have always been and will always be in the minority, but they are the ones that make things happen. Most will never understand it, but some do.
    HG, there is a lot of good stuff in your post to discuss. The warrior attitude, the sentiment that if you don't fear death you are somehow freed to act, makes perfect sense on a battle field. On a battle field your actions are backed by your government. You don't get punished for bravery. You get rewarded. You don't get punished for aggressive fighting, you get praised. And you normally won't get second guessed. This is quite the opposite of what happens with civilian self-defense.

    I really don't quite see the comparison between a "warrior" mentality and the mind set necessary for use of force in self-defense scenarios. (I hate it when people I know try to praise me by saying I have a warrior mentality.)

    IF we lived in a more perfect world, where the evidence was always clear, truth, justice, etc., always prevailed, then one would never have anything to fear from a righteous shoot. The problem of course is we all know the name of the game is second guessing by LEOs, DAs, judges, juries, appeals courts.

    The real warrior on the field of battle has two options; fight or die (or possibly disobey and flee). While the fight or die part might be the same when dealing with a BG, the legal framework backing you up is quite different. I think we all intuitively know this is the case, and it is one reason (not to resurrect a sore point with some on this board) why juries tend to be lenient with LEOs. There is a realization that their battle field rules need to be a tad less stringent than those the rest of us deal with.

    You can go to your job with a warrior mentality, committed to die fighting evil, precisely because you are unlikely to be punished
    for doing your job. (I know, it happens, but usually only in very serious aggravating and outlandish circumstances.) A highly moral person as you seem to be, with a solid sense of right and wrong, as you seem to be, can leave for work in the morning without fear of ending up in jail. That's a little different than what the rest of us will face if we make the slightest mistake.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    okla
    Posts
    4,298
    Lets make things simple.
    You have only two choices.
    1) You live life as a free man. Well as free as you can be under present laws.
    2) You spend the rest of your life in confinement.

    Which would you choose.

    Michael

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    7,421
    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I guess what I do not understand are those who given the choice of life imprisonment or death will choose life. Its like freedom is not as important as life is to them. To me life without freedom would be worse than death.

    Michael
    Have you no mind? For me, even time in prison could be used for my mind. All freedom begins there anyway.
    Tzadik and jace33 like this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  12. #27
    New Member Array SERGU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    13
    Generally, the people who "choose" to spend life rather than be put to death have already been there and done that previously. In other words, being in prison is not their first rodeo. They know the system, and figure they can at least have SOME kind of life, even if it is heavily restricted by prison walls. For a law abiding citizen, it's a different matter. I have no desire to be Tyrone's b@#$h for 15 years, and would likely not survive long in a real prison environment. In my state, you cannot be sued in Civil Court for shooting someone IF the shooting was deemed justified for whatever reason. If someone comes into my home that I don't know, I figure they ain't there to borrow sugar, so they are likely going to be dead, or seriously injured, if I have wits enough at the time to do what needs to be done...and that's a big IF. Sitting here typing about killing somebody is waaaaaaay different than actually doing it. Most gun owners who own for self protection don't REALLY know how they would react in a real situation, unless they've been there before, or had some serious training in self defense and use of deadly force. I'd venture to say that 98% of typical gun owners don't have that kind of training. So, if I could do so, I'd shoot to kill somebody invading my home, doing something life threatening to either me or my loved ones, and I would probably even do so if I was witness to a potentially fatal encounter between a perp and an innocent....like somebody being abducted, raped, etc. Wanting my wallet or my wife's purse...they can have it if I feel that's all that's going to happen. Same with my vehicle, IF they let me get out and then just take it. I would NOT let them take me anywhere in the car, if there was any way to avoid it, even if it meant I might die in the process of defending myself in that situation. 'Cause I'd probably end up dead anyway.

    I have been told by numerous LEO's in my home town to shoot to kill, if you're going to shoot at all. Empty the magazine in 'em. Don't answer questions posed by LEO's after the fact, if it is apparent that the situation was self defense. Just say "I was in fear of my life being taken". The reason not to answer many qustions is that your frame of mind is not going to be clear right after something like that happens, and if you say something that, after some further consideration, is different than what you said immediately afterwards, it can be used against you because your story changed.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    okla
    Posts
    4,298
    Quote Originally Posted by SERGU View Post
    Generally, the people who "choose" to spend life rather than be put to death have already been there and done that previously. In other words, being in prison is not their first rodeo. They know the system, and figure they can at least have SOME kind of life, even if it is heavily restricted by prison walls. :SNIP:
    When I see these type folks I think of the cattle across the road from me. Mindless dumb animals shuffling through life.

    Michael

  14. #29
    VIP Member
    Array atctimmy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NSA Headquarters
    Posts
    6,443
    When I read that phrase I interpret it this way: "Don't sweat the small stuff." If someone is trying to kill you then you need to fight and you need to do everything in your power to win that fight. If that lands you in court then so be it.

    For me losing a gun fight might very well mean that my wife gets raped or my kids get killed. I'd be willing to spend a lifetime, two or even five lifetimes in prison if it meant keeping my loved ones safe.

    Most likely it will be more of a financial hassle than that of a long prison term.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    North Georgia
    Posts
    7,025
    I've heard it before and even said it once or twice, but mostly more tongue and cheek than a personal conviction.

    Truthfully speaking. In the event I'm faced with the real life situation where I must decide on lethal force, or sacrifice my life to someone hell bent on taking it. I'm 99.99999999999% sure no charges will follow me around. I'm a good student, and I've already been through two events in my 25+ years of CC, so I pretty much know how I'll react under stress.. No shots were fired and no charges were levied. Every situation is different, but a good base to work from will most always take over, if you can keep your head about you.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

,

better to be tried by 12

,

better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6

,
i'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6
,
it is better to be tried by 12
,
it is better to be tried by twelve then carried by six
,
it's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6
,

judged by 12 carried by 6

,
rather be tried by 12
,
tried by 12 carried by 6
,
tried by 12 than carried by 6
,
tried by twelve carried by six
Click on a term to search for related topics.