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Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6

This is a discussion on Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Cold Shot Maybe you're not understanding the slogan. It's obviously meaning different things to different people, and I can't really change that. ...

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Thread: Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    Maybe you're not understanding the slogan. It's obviously meaning different things to different people, and I can't really change that.

    Let's take it literally. Being tried by 12 means you're facing criminal charges. Based on the verdict, the sentencing may be extremely harsh, which is possible if you shoot somebody and kill them. It could be 5 years, 10 years, 62 years, 3 life sentences, etc.

    Being carried by six means you're dead. Now there is going to be a range of views on death that cannot be changed on some internet forum. Religious folks believe in some after life, some people may not. Let's say the OP is comfortable with the after life, in that he believes he will go to heaven, just go to sleep and black out, be reincarnated as a golden eagle, etc.

    The phrase "better to be tried to 12 than be carried by six" is an absolute. It states that it is always better to be in court than dead. The OP's opinion is that sometimes it may be better to be dead. This is an opinion, and nothing more. Despite any religious ideals, it is reasonable for a person to think that in extreme cases. The OP is trying to say that facing murder charges, the outcome of which could place him in confinement for the rest of his life with all sorts of degenerates and mental hardships, could potentially be worse than death, in his opinion.

    Or rather - going out swinging is better than spending the rest of one's life in a box, eating slop everyday, dealing with violence and sexual assault on a regular basis, never feeling the touch of a woman, etc.

    That is a possible outcome of "being tried by 12."
    I personaly think you have it 180 degrees backwards. If you are not going out swinging then you chose inaction which means you are dead if in the case of SD or someone else dies by your inaction (active shooter) which means you will not go to prison. If you make the decision to draw, even if it seems questionable, then you may die or live. But, you made the decision to fire. If you survive then you are at the mercy of a DA and jury to determine if it was justified. I don't like the phrase myself because it is a catch all.


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I personaly think you have it 180 degrees backwards. If you are not going out swinging then you chose inaction which means you are dead if in the case of SD or someone else dies by your inaction (active shooter) which means you will not go to prison. If you make the decision to draw, even if it seems questionable, then you may die or live. But, you made the decision to fire. If you survive then you are at the mercy of a DA and jury to determine if it was justified. I don't like the phrase myself because it is a catch all.
    Ok, I'm not 100% sure what you're saying. I cannot, in good conscience, post in this thread anymore, so this will be it.

    No one is talking about inaction. I don't think anybody on this site would just let somebody murder them. The phrase pops up all over the place, however. Many times I have seen the phrase used to describe a borderline reckless action, not a clear cut self defense scenario.

    The OP says death > life in prison. That is all. Opinions may vary.

  3. #48
    Member Array All_Business's Avatar
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    How did this get turned into a 4 page long argument? I went with orange juice instead of coffee this morning...shall we begin the debate?
    "When that gun comes out of that holster; it's business time." -Chris Costa

  4. #49
    Member Array l1a1's Avatar
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    Orange juice? Coffee? How about somebody caffienate OJ. The best thinkers and scientific minds in the world and nobody has come up with that yet? It's about damn time.

  5. #50
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    How did this get turned into a 4 page long argument?
    Did you post in the wrong thread? This one hasnt even hit 2 pages yet.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Did you post in the wrong thread? This one hasnt even hit 2 pages yet.
    On my screen that was post #51 on page 4. Maybe I have it set up to where I view less posts per page...who knows..I know I don't.
    "When that gun comes out of that holster; it's business time." -Chris Costa

  7. #52
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    if im caught in a position id give most anything to have it go away and its going to badly
    change my life ( and of those around me) im going to do as need dictates and deal with being
    judged later.

    i will have acted truely and only as needed;
    should there be a trial, i trust these facts to become evident
    Last edited by limatunes; March 5th, 2012 at 11:53 AM. Reason: referencing deleted post
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  8. #53
    Member Array paching's Avatar
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    The op asks one question of two totally different scenarios:

    1) Your an armed (I suppose , decent law abiding) citizen who is in a life threatening situation

    Your options:
    a) Defend yourself and risk be judged or
    b) Die by the hand of the bad guy for fear of judgement

    Your example:

    2) Your a criminal, who has commited violent acts that merit the death penalty

    a) You plea bargain, because you're a gutless coward and are afraid of dying or
    b) Go out in a haze of bullets because you've been through the system and you know whats in store for you

    My choice in the first scenario is a) I'm a law abiding citizen who legally did nothing wrong but defend my or my families lives. I'll take my odds. Now if you're talking about being a BG, then I might see you're POV. We're all good guys here who believe in protecting our families and our ways of life..that's why we see it the way we do
    Why?? Because at the last second, the Police are minutes away.

  9. #54
    Ex Member Array Rotorhead84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    Ok, I'm not 100% sure what you're saying. I cannot, in good conscience, post in this thread anymore, so this will be it.

    No one is talking about inaction. I don't think anybody on this site would just let somebody murder them. The phrase pops up all over the place, however. Many times I have seen the phrase used to describe a borderline reckless action, not a clear cut self defense scenario.

    The OP says death > life in prison. That is all. Opinions may vary.
    No offense or anything, but I'm now positive you either don't understand what the saying actually means, or you fail to grasp what is going on in this thread.

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    If the saying "I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six" makes you uneasy, then its likely you will never use your weapon in a righteous self defense situation for fear of legal repurcussions. If you have not come to grips with the fact that one day you may have to take a life to save your own, then by all means.....leave your gun at home. Its of no value to you.
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

  11. #56
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonker1986 View Post
    If the saying "I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six" makes you uneasy, then its likely you will never use your weapon in a righteous self defense situation for fear of legal repurcussions. If you have not come to grips with the fact that one day you may have to take a life to save your own, then by all means.....leave your gun at home. Its of no value to you.
    The phrase does make me uncomfortable, but yet I believe, or at least hope, and it would be my intention in the moment of truth to defend myself and I would willing take the life of someone else to do so. I also wish I had the faith in the 'system' that others have with regards to the legal outcome of such a situation.

    At the same time, I would rather be dead than in prison. I do not fear death. Death is natural and a necessary to sustain life. Prison is not. Prison is man made. My death would leave my family better off than my being in prison. Having never experienced it, I can't say that I fear prison, but what I imagine it to be is a fate that scares me more than death.

  12. #57
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    I hate the saying. I think it's stupid.

    Yes, we are all willing to fight for our lives. But even survival can have it's very serious consequences... even if you were completely justified.

    Then there are those who have been charged and "judged by 12" who have suffered GREAT loss; financially, emotionally, physically. They have lost their savings, their homes, their freedom, their jobs and in some cases their families through divorce due to the whole ordeal and some people have been wounded and need to learn to live with lifelong disabilities. Some HAVE gone to jail or prison and ended up judged a felon and even when they do get out they cannot buy another firearm. They can't find a job. Everything that made them who they were and everything they were fighting for was taken from them. They had to go through the social stigma of living through having had taken a life and they have to live with that.

    But according to our little "saying" they should be grateful because, by golly, they're alive!!!!

    Death or prison are not your only options and it's never as simple as that.

    I agree with how Massad Ayoob put it.. A gunfight is a lose/lose situation. No matter if you win you still lose. You will always lose something in a self defense situation, whether it's an injury or just some emotional toll. No one ever comes away from a lethal self defense encounter unscathed.

    I think the little "better to be judged by twelve than carried by six" saying over simplified and cheapens the whole unspeakably sobering reality of a lethal self-defense scenario. It behooves people to think long and hard about what they preparing to do and everything that may entail.

    And, yeah, some people very well may think it's not worth it and that they would rather be dead than go through life in a wheelchair or life without their wife and children, etc. That is their choice. That doesn't mean those who think about these things are going to hesitate when the time comes.. no one can know what someone will do until they are there. But I don't think self defense should be presented in such black and white simplicity... It's never that simple.

  13. #58
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    I agree that if there ever was a grey-area subject, it's a gun fight. Even survival isn't an absolute requirement (at least for me, if family is involved).

    We can only train and pray that we're never put to the test.
    l1a1 likes this.
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  14. #59
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    This has brought out a lot of interesting opinions on the subject. Thank you.

    Michael

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