Good hand-to-hand combat training?

This is a discussion on Good hand-to-hand combat training? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by atctimmy Boxing doesn't rule anything friend. I've never seen a street fight that stayed up for more than 30 seconds. I will ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Boxing doesn't rule anything friend. I've never seen a street fight that stayed up for more than 30 seconds. I will agree that learning to strike and to avoid strikes is a valuable tool, it doesn't rule though.

    Purely as techniques go, grappling wins fights. The ability to grapple is like a foreign language. You either know it or you're completely lost.

    More than anything though, the will to do what the other guy won't do is what wins fights.
    IF by grappling you are referring to "ground fighting" that really and truly is almost a whole foreign language. It is quite
    interesting stuff; Krav covers it fairly well actually. My age and individual infirmity have made practicing ground fighting a tough thing for me to learn.

    While I think you are right that most fights will go to the ground in 30 seconds or less, most fights should not last more than
    2-3 seconds. Either do it or don't do it. I had an instructor once who insisted we watch the Bourne Identity to see
    the speed of execution.

    I'm too old for a ground game. I'm either going to put you on the ground with a broken neck (remarkably easy--especially if you also know how to do mobility throws well) or I'm going to shoot you. My only other option would be to break away and run. (Or not be there--my favorite choice of course.)

    I don't want a 30 second fight or one minute fight. I don't want to go to the ground and have your buddy kick my head off.

    Thirty seconds is for the gym and exhibitions, not the real world.
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  3. #17
    Member Array tactilame's Avatar
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    Wow, thanks for the opinions and info everyone. I appreciate it.

    I've been doing some research, and I think I might try Krav Maga. There's an instructor in the area who has good reviews, and apparently is "certified and trained" by Israeli instructors. For about 20 bucks they offer an introductory 90 minute class.

    Hopyard, I agree wholeheartedly that SA is key. IMO the best way to win a fight is not be in one at all. My interest in learning h2h combat is akin to the interest I have in firearms training and CCW. I don't want to get in a fight and I'll do everything I can to avoid it, even if it means running away or screaming, but if for whatever reason some day I found myself confronted with an unavoidable physical altercation, I'd like to be able to do more to defend myself than just guess and fight wildly, if that makes any sense. I want to learn a martial art mostly just for the peace of mind it would bring me. I feel like I need to at least attempt to be prepared for anything, regardless of how unlikely those situations may be.

    I'm also attempting to get back in shape. I'm not in terrible shape, but I'm not in good shape either. I've been running 2 miles a day, 6 days a week for about 2 months now and eating healthy, and I'm down to 190; I was at 220 before that and I'm 6'1. I figure it'd be a lot more interesting and worthwhile to try to maintain good shape through a martial art as opposed to just running or lifting weights.

    I would still love to hear more opinions on the subject though! Thanks y'all.
    "Shoot low boys, they're riding Shetland ponies." -Lewis Grizzard

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    I tend to agree with Hopy. Grappling may be fine if you are facing a single opponent. But, that's not the "flashmob" world we live in today. There is absolutely no one size fits all in every SD situation.

    You goal should be first to avoid. But, if your SA fails you and you find yourself in a bad situation you need to do what to gotta do to get away. At the very least, you need to have a few good moves that will help you first "deflect" the initial attack and help give you a couple of seconds to get to you PCW.


    I think the main reason we see "failures" in some SD situations is due to a victim being slow to recognize the potential danger; then being hesitant and/or reluctant in "deflecting" the attack and mounting a VIOLENT counter attack.

    I think the primary goal most people will ever need is just a couple of good deflection moves; and a couple of counter attack moves that can do EXTREME bodily harm in just a couple of seconds.

    Like Hop said, if you're going to do something DO IT.

    (I say do it as VIOLENTLY as you can.)
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    I tend to agree with Hopy. Grappling may be fine if you are facing a single opponent. But, that's not the "flashmob" world we live in today. There is absolutely no one size fits all in every SD situation.

    You goal should be first to avoid. But, if your SA fails you and you find yourself in a bad situation you need to do what to gotta do to get away. At the very least, you need to have a few good moves that will help you first "deflect" the initial attack and help give you a couple of seconds to get to you PCW.


    I think the main reason we see "failures" in some SD situations is due to a victim being slow to recognize the potential danger; then being hesitant and/or reluctant in "deflecting" the attack and mounting a VIOLENT counter attack.

    I think the primary goal most people will ever need is just a couple of good deflection moves; and a couple of counter attack moves that can do EXTREME bodily harm in just a couple of seconds.

    Like Hop said, if you're going to do something DO IT.

    (I say do it as VIOLENTLY as you can.)
    I certainly agree with the no "one size fits all" sentiment. I was simply stating that the most effective fighting styles are generally well versed in the ability to grapple in some way. Styles like Krav, BJJ and probably a few others that I'm not aware of.

    Remember that this thread is in response to the OP's question of what H2H styles are the best for SD.

    Now in response to your "deflect the initial attack" response and to Hopy's break your neck quick mentality: Both of you guys are assuming a sloppy attack by a relatively unskilled opponent.

    Now I understand that the odds are in favor of never being attacked and if attacked that your attacker will not be a MMA specialist. I get it. I really do, BUT we are in the business of preparing for the worst here at DC. IMO you (we, me) should train like we are expecting the worst case scenario. In this case it would be a BG who knows what he’s doing.

    As an aside I will compare my attitude on this to the mantra of one of my old teammates. When he was preparing for a wrestling match he would imagine his opponent training. If that imaginary guy did 100 pushups my friend would do two hundred. If the phantom opponent ran 5 miles then my friend would run 10. His motto was to always outwork any possible adversary and he was very successful. I believe in using that same philosophy towards SD and life in general.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Boxing doesn't rule anything friend. I've never seen a street fight that stayed up for more than 30 seconds. I will agree that learning to strike and to avoid strikes is a valuable tool, it doesn't rule though.

    Purely as techniques go, grappling wins fights. The ability to grapple is like a foreign language. You either know it or you're completely lost.

    More than anything though, the will to do what the other guy won't do is what wins fights.
    I disagree with the grappling part. Honestly, the goal of a fight should be to stay on your feet. If you do that, it probably means the other guy is down and you are not hurt that badly. Grappling is pretty cool, but I would never try to submit somebody on the ground.

    armenian boxer vs group of turks - YouTube

    Old but good - that's kind of the goal in a street fight. Hit, move, and keep your head on a swivel.

    Your last sentence is true in many cases. If somebody escalates to very high levels of violence while the other guy is looking for a shoving match, then the outcome is obvious, but if two dudes know there is going be a fight (which is somewhat rare), then skill will play a major factor.

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    One approach is to learn a hard style first, like Krav or traditional boxing. That gets you up to speed fairly quickly and gives you solid, simple tools while teaching you to deal with pressure and adrenaline.

    Later, when you're comfortable with that, you can consider adding on a soft style to learn how to use an opponent's force and weight to your advantage. That takes a long time and considerable effort, but it's well worth it.
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    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    I disagree with the grappling part. Honestly, the goal of a fight should be to stay on your feet. If you do that, it probably means the other guy is down and you are not hurt that badly. Grappling is pretty cool, but I would never try to submit somebody on the ground.
    I'm not talking about submission. That's for the guys on TV. I'm talking about having the ability to smash an opponent to the ground and apply strikes. It's fast, ugly and most of the strikes I would use are not legal in MMA.

    I grew up in a fighting town at the end of the fighting era (late 70s and 80s). I have been in, been around and have seen more fights than most. I've won a bunch of fights and have taken my share of beatings. I've fought in groups and I've fought 1 vs. 1. Two things I know: A good big guy is going to beat a good little guy and if you can't fight on the ground you can't fight at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    Your last sentence is true in many cases. If somebody escalates to very high levels of violence while the other guy is looking for a shoving match, then the outcome is obvious, but if two dudes know there is going be a fight (which is somewhat rare), then skill will play a major factor.
    Be first. Whether with fists or firearms, be first. It's the best advice I can give anyone about
    anything violent.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  9. #23
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    Wow, looks like I'm late to the post again. There has been some pretty good advice given already. Here are a few thoughts I've noted while reading through the postings. Obviously avoidance is best. That being said, if you must fight, you must counter any attacks and completely dominate your opponent before he has a chance to make a second attempt, or even realize he has already lost. That usually means sudden violence that takes away his ability to fight. An assailant who cannot breath is not going to continue fighting. If his knee is broken so that he can't stand (pretty easily done) he can only get you with a distance weapon. If he cannot see, it is pretty much over.

    I like the idea of learning simple, effective techniques first and then continuing to supplement them with additional understanding of control techniques.

    Boxing is good to know but is incomplete as a combat art. Moreover, if practiced as a sport, it conditions one to ignore it's own weaknesses.

    From what I've seen and heard, Krav Maga would be on the short list. As would San Soo, although it is harder to find an instructor as it was introduced to the U.S. in Los Angeles and is not as widely known yet. Aikido, practiced as a warring art and not the non-violent art that it is often promoted as, can be very effective.

    As with most things, the quality of the instruction depends upon the instructor and what dedication you both bring to the practice.

    A complete hand-to-hand art would cover the following areas of knowledge and be combat based.

    Vital and non-vital target points on the body
    This would cover body mechanics and systems, and will give you the understanding to destroy the body; think first-aid, but for the opposite purpose.

    Striking and kicking
    This would include how-to, when-to, and our natural weapons; fist vs palm, elbows and knees, head butts, etc.

    Take-downs
    This must include the concept of balance-both yours and your opponent's. Also includes flips, throws, and sweeps.

    Levereges
    the different types, how and why they work, how to choose which one to use. Great for control and breaking limbs.

    Ground work
    As it implies, how to fight from the ground. Why to avoid it and what to do when you find yourself there. Also, how to fall down (or be thrown) with out getting hurt.

    Psychology of combat (a weak area for most arts)
    Mental attitude of yourself and the opponent; how to enhance yours and degrade his. This might also be where situational awareness fits in. Avoidance, the OODA loop applies to more than just gun fights and more than just close quarters.

    The legal stuff (very important).

    Spend some time actually watching several classes from the different schools and how people spar. Ask as many questions as you have and be honest with the instructors and yourself in what you wish to achieve. An effective training program need not take years to yield excellent results, although mastery will take a lifetime.

    If you can't find the ideal classes in your area, find the best you can for the basics and begin. You can supplement elsewhere later. Just be sure you are not ingraining bad habits.

    A last thought is this. As in pistol training, there is a hierarchy of learning that is: 1) accuracy of

    movement, 2) then speed, and 3) lastly, power. If you ingrain this principle into your training you will

    soon find a point of rapid advancement.

    Good luck with your search.
    Last edited by Hoganbeg; March 5th, 2012 at 06:12 PM. Reason: grammer
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  10. #24
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    ^^^^

    Nice post.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

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    I personally train boxing, muay thai, and jiu jitsu. I have so for years and they have been put to the test. Personally I feel like in order to be prepared for a threat you have to be well rounded, having just a stand up game or just a ground game isn't good. U have to be comfortable wherever a fight takes you. As "all business" stated jiu jitsu is all about form and technique, iv seen small woman tap out very large men. Also in my opinion good hard sparring is the most important. You can know all the skills but if you can't take a punch and keep fighting without thinking twice than you'll lose every time. Also training ground and stand allows u to take advantage of your opponents weaknesses, if he is getting the best of you when your throwing hands...take him to the ground. Most people are extremely uncomfortable on the ground. But whatever you choose, train often, you have to devolved muscle memory, so that your body reacts automatically. The styles I mentioned are also not flashy or pretty, they are all about what works and gets the job done.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I certainly agree with the no "one size fits all" sentiment. I was simply stating that the most effective fighting styles are generally well versed in the ability to grapple in some way. Styles like Krav, BJJ and probably a few others that I'm not aware of.

    Remember that this thread is in response to the OP's question of what H2H styles are the best for SD.

    Now in response to your "deflect the initial attack" response and to Hopy's break your neck quick mentality: Both of you guys are assuming a sloppy attack by a relatively unskilled opponent.

    Now I understand that the odds are in favor of never being attacked and if attacked that your attacker will not be a MMA specialist. I get it. I really do, BUT we are in the business of preparing for the worst here at DC. IMO you (we, me) should train like we are expecting the worst case scenario. In this case it would be a BG who knows what he’s doing.

    As an aside I will compare my attitude on this to the mantra of one of my old teammates. When he was preparing for a wrestling match he would imagine his opponent training. If that imaginary guy did 100 pushups my friend would do two hundred. If the phantom opponent ran 5 miles then my friend would run 10. His motto was to always outwork any possible adversary and he was very successful. I believe in using that same philosophy towards SD and life in general.
    Not at all Tim. I expect & train for an attack from multiple assailants; who are somewhat skilled in their "craft". (If they weren't they wouldn't be doing what they do.)

    I can't speak for Hopy. But, I think we both come into the game with the hindrances & disadvantage of our "AGE" & physical limitations. This means we cannot engage in a prolonged hth grappling match or fight. We just need to deflect the attack so we will have enough time to escape or bring our PCW into play.

    There is no way to be certain of any (UNKNOWN) opponents ability. You can only know you own limitations & abilities.

    Knowing my abilities & my limitations gives me a better understanding of the way I need to train/prepare; and I must be doing something right because I have faced multiple "skilled" opponents; (in real life). I have faced multiple "armed" opponents; (in real life). I have also won in every encounter I've been involved in by hurting (SEVERELY), sometimes "maiming" those that attacked me. (ALL while being unarmed myself)

    I'm not the man I once was. But, even with age & disability working against me I can NOT think of no two "skilled" men (ANYWHERE) that I could not defeat; if they made the mistake & attacked me. Even any four "unarmed" assailants would not cause me to cower in fear; because I have the REAL life experience that proves me right in my understanding.

    Please understand I am not trying to be a braggart. I just "KNOW" my abilities & limitations. I have the better part of forty years of interactions with ALL levels of street people. I've learned how the typical "bum", crackhead thief and violent criminal think. I've had relationships (even friendships) with drug dealers, armed robbers, even convicted murderers. These relationships began when I was just a boy living on the streets of Memphis; and the continue today as I minister & reach out to these types of people for the sake of the Gospel & the love of Christ.

    -
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    Not to be overly mystical, but tcox4freedom's post reminds me of the quote
    Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never peril.
    Sun Tzu
    GREAT thread. I'd love to contribute my pearls of wisdom, but I gotta go train. Seriously. Doing Chinese internal, if you're curious. I do Kali taught by a venerable student of the Chinese art teacher, and, elsewhere, boxing fitness for conditioning. I'm afraid of going to the ground. Not good. Gotta work on that. Later.
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    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    Not to be overly mystical, but tcox4freedom's post reminds me of the quote
    GREAT thread. I'd love to contribute my pearls of wisdom, but I gotta go train. Seriously. Doing Chinese internal, if you're curious. I do Kali taught by a venerable student of the Chinese art teacher, and, elsewhere, boxing fitness for conditioning. I'm afraid of going to the ground. Not good. Gotta work on that. Later.
    Well, I just learned something. I had thought Kali, Escrima and Arnis were essentially the same Filippino art. Well, I just looked up the word Kali-- at least as it is presented in Wiki; and sure enough it isn't what I thought it was.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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    Southnarc-enough said!

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    Ima back u on this with boxing is very effective. Iv done most my training in boxing and have excelled immensely at it. For someone to say a street fight always goes to the ground is ridiculous. If your hands are good enough and you have good balance you and fend off multiple people and stay on your feet, I know because I have done it many times. I love grappling and train it a lot but it does you no good if you get knocked out before you can take your opponent down. And if you are fighting more than one person the last thing you want to do is go to the ground.
    But your never to old to learn grappling bud my dad is almost 50 and he loves it and is very good, and there are even older men that come to our mma school to learn. Just because you are learning it doesn't mean you have to compete in it! :)

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