Crisis of Character

This is a discussion on Crisis of Character within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by HotGuns Sooo, is that your list of sources or logic or even a coherent answer? Thanks, saved me time. Originally Posted by ...

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  1. #181
    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Sooo, is that your list of sources or logic or even a coherent answer? Thanks, saved me time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    torgo1968,

    Let me "share" this information with you. Metro Kansas City's Penn Valley College came out with a statement a year ago that stated that teaching most students on a College level was near impossible because most of their students can't even read at a 5th grade level. Their math skills were below that. Grammar and English skills darn near non existent. I think most of us know how bad the knowledge of actual History is. I have seen this problem stated by many institutions of higher learning. It shows in this day that students are just "passed" and not held to a standard of learning that was required for College in past generations.
    What you said here contradicts nothing I said. You pointed to the apparent experience of a single institution rather than cite any formal study or evidence. You didn't show how things were getting worse, and you didn't show how this proves the decline of civilization.

    If you don't believe that society is getting more dangerous, I suggest you do MORE reading. It shows in articles not only from our Country, but all over the World.
    From a review of Stephen Pinker's recent book, The Better Angels of Our Nature: "The central thesis of “Better Angels” is that our era is less violent, less cruel and more peaceful than any previous period of human existence. The decline in violence holds for violence in the family, in neighborhoods, between tribes and between states. People living now are less likely to meet a violent death, or to suffer from violence or cruelty at the hands of others, than people living in any previous century."

    Amazon.com: The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined (9780670022953): Steven Pinker: Books

    BTW. On all you say. SOURCE
    Ok.

    We have people trying to teach religious mythology in science classes

    See Kitzmiller V Dover. http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmil...miller_342.pdf

    public schools are in no way on equal footing when it comes to funding...

    http://www.nyls.edu/user_files/1/3/4...licSchools.pdf
    School Funding's Tragic Flaw | Education Sector
    http://www.schoolfundingfairness.org...traussWaPo.pdf

    Source? The studies I found indicate otherwise.

    National Assessment of Adult Literacy (NAAL) - What is NAAL?

    This kind of stuff exists, but I see no sign of a reduction in the drive to win. The fanaticism over big time sports, which foster a win at all costs attitude (steroids, other forms of cheating) seems to contradict that.

    Do I really have to source this one?

    And by the way, again, despite the media hype, bullying is actually down.

    News story about a DOJ study showing bullying is in decline: Bullying down sharply across U.S., survey finds | Dallas-Fort Worth Breaking News - News for Dallas, Texas - The Dallas Morning News

    As I said earlier, the worst mass murder at a school occurred in the good ole days.

    Wiki about the 1927 Bath, Michigan school bombing: Bath School disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Not true.

    See the earlier link to Pinker's book.

    I hope I have passed your "spelling test" with this.
    I didn't issue a spelling test. HotGuns listed poor spelling skills as a symptom or cause (not sure which) of the end of civilization. I was merely pointing out his contribution to our nosedive into the fire.

    Also, now that I've provided some sources, can I expect you to demand the same from HotGuns?
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  3. #182
    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    They pass "Zero Tolerance" so they can point to a "Policy Statement" that says "Zero Tolerance" rather than articulate differences and enforce differences because despite the current mantra, all things are not the same.
    We are actually in agreement here.

    Cowardice is a character flaw, too, there is nothing gray about it. Nothing PC about it either.
    But this jumps to something different. Zero tolerance policies are about laziness and not wanting to take the time or effort to see (as you aptly pointed out) differences between offenses. In other words, refusing to see the gray.

  4. #183
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    I tend to agree with most of what you said, torgo.

    This is a profoundly complex issue that is philosophical in nature. The argument is outside of the scope of this forum. It seems that many posts are based on feelings rather than facts. The fact that you researched your viewpoints is admirable. Someone may be able to come here and post some studies that refute some of your conclusions, but at least you are looking at things with an open mind and thinking things through.

    You already had some of the better posts in this thread, but I'd still like to see a few more smileys from Hotguns, so keep up the good work.

  5. #184
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    Just got back from the "Hunger Games".

    Since you asked...



    still...
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  6. #185
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    This is the best you've got?

    HotGuns: "At some point society will collapse because the stupid people will outnumber the smart ones."
    After listening to what you said you ARE the example of what you describe that you dislike the most.(Torgo has a point about your spelling) You speak your mind without a care of who it may offend.

    God forbid that we actually say something that might hurt the feelings of some little pansy that hasnt figured out if he is a man or a woman.
    See that quote? You don't care what you say. Thoughtless. Not only do you not spell very well but the above quote is bigotry at it's finest. That comment is VERY offensive.
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    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

  7. #186
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    What you said here contradicts nothing I said. You pointed to the apparent experience of a single institution rather than cite any formal study or evidence. You didn't show how things were getting worse, and you didn't show how this proves the decline of civilization.
    Here:

    High schools think they're preparing students for college, but when many graduates get there, they have to take remedial classes, Inland educators say.

    Statewide, about 90 percent of California's community college students need remedial math and 75 percent need remedial English.
    Here: More college students require remedial courses | Breaking News | PE.com - Press-Enterprise

    Here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...myZs3w5lacivFA

    Here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...eTpXyCfLUqkQ1Q

    That is but a small sample of primary sources for the failure of K-12 to adequately prepare students for collegiate work.

    As an employer in a previous life, I saw this translate into poor writing skills, poor communication skills and the like. My new hires were typically good at math though.

    This obviously will cause the decline of civilization as we know it today. The inability to communicate verbally or in writing is a fundamental skill which typically sets us apart, from say, water buffalo or ferrets. Employers need and expect employees to be able to communicate in complex sentences using complex thoughts, and if the education system is spending resources on remedial work, then, for lands sake, they are spending scare resources needlessly. Spending resources needlessly will ultimately cause inefficiencies in our system which will doom us to producing cheap plastic widgets for export to the technological powerhouses in Africa. Thus, we are doomed and civilization will fail. I just can't understand why you do not grasp that obvious concept.

    The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, four other adults and the bomber himself; at least 58 people were injured.
    Hmmmmm: Murrah Building OKC: The building was the target of the Oklahoma City bombing on April 19, 1995, which killed 168 people, including 19 children. Not a school per say, but it had a daycare immediately above and to the south of the epicenter of the blast.;

    And...........: The Beslan school hostage crisis (also referred to as the Beslan school siege or Beslan massacre)[2][3][4] of early September 2004 lasted three days and involved the capture of over 1,100 people as hostages (including 777 children)[5], ending with the death of over 380 people.

    I'll dig up more, but to be honest, your original post slipped my mind..........

    Bullies:

    The bullying statistics 2010 reveal that bullying is a crime that is not going away anytime soon. There are about 160,000 children that miss school every day out of fear of being bullied. Bullying statistics 2010 also report an increase in cyberbullying activities.

    New bullying statistics released in 2010 are showing that bullying is still a problem among children and teens, but is taking on a different approach with cyberbullying becoming more and more rampant in school and after school among teens and children. Social networking has provided an entirely new environment for bullying to take place. According to bullying statistics 2010, there are about 2.7 million students being bullied each year by about 2.1 students taking on the roll of the bully.
    Here: http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/co...tics-2010.html

    These folks say no: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...xkZjZeMSWP1vBw

    These folks say it has changed: http://singularityhub.com/2010/10/23...their-victims/



    The issue I keep coming back to is that people continue to fail to take responsibility for their own behavior, and thus feel free to act out and do and say things that previously would not have been tolerated in years past. Failure to take responsibility frees one to act out and blame third parties, tolerance on the part of society allows the actor the freedom to act without censure. That in my mind is a crisis in character.

    We as a society have been/are taught, coached, cajoled, and otherwise expected to "be more tolerant" and less judgmental, when in fact we should be more judgmental and less tolerant. I have two high performing children in their 30's that understood, quite clearly, that I would be extremely judgmental of their behavior and performance. I had very high expectations which they met. The most important expectation was that they do their best every time and perform to their utmost ability. So......what does my cute little personally story mean..........

    If we let children and adults slide by, performing at the margin, not performing up to their potential, they learn mediocrity is acceptable, they learn tolerance.....and that can manifest itself in mediocrity elsewhere, in behaviors that are unacceptable, but remember.....they are performing at the margin....and we tolerate it, and we all lose. A crisis in character, and character formation.

    We all lose.

  8. #187
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    That "crisis in character" that is spoken of is quite apparent in some of these posts.

    Kudo's to Rock and Glock, for smoking them out. It's working quite well.

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    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  9. #188
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    Talk about spelling...
    check this out...

    384329_195555930518457_126894987384552_439366_1802175988_n.jpg

    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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  10. #189
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    I can't read Ms. Noonan's article without subscribing, so I will only be able to respond to what I have read in this thread.

    Feel free to argue among yourselves about whether your generation is worse or better.
    And feel free to argue about whether subsequent or previous generations are better or worse.

    But, to me, the issues are whether or not YOU are better than preceding generations, and what YOU are doing to leave a legacy better than you found for subsequent generations and all those who are within YOUR sphere of influence.

    I have learned, and now teach, that ALL persons are of sacred worth. (That does not mean all behaviors are equally right.)
    I have learned, and now teach, that I am to leave part of my fields for people to glean. (That does not mean I have to pick it for them, clean it, deliver it, and spoon feed it to them.)
    i have learned, and now teach, that I have a responsibility for the poor, the widow, the alien, the weak, the orphan (including the unborn), and those who CANNOT do for themselves. (That does not mean doing for people what they can do for themselves.)

    I have learned, and now teach, that I am to be strong and loving, just like my Creator, who I believe sets the standard very high. (That does not mean that government should force me to do ITS will by coercion.)

    I have learned, and now teach, that whatever I complain about means absolutely nothing. What matters, and what I will be held accountable for, is whether or not I have lived up to the standards I have been shown and called to exemplify. And, am I helping others to come to these conclusions, and live out these values?

    I am certain that each and everyone of us will be held to that same standard, and we will each one day be called to account for our performance.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  11. #190
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    IF you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
    If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
    But make allowance for their doubting too;
    If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
    Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
    Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
    And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
    If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
    If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
    If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same;
    If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
    Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
    And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

    If you can make one heap of all your winnings
    And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
    And lose, and start again at your beginnings
    And never breathe a word about your loss;
    If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
    To serve your turn long after they are gone,
    And so hold on when there is nothing in you
    Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

    If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
    ' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
    if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
    If all men count with you, but none too much;
    If you can fill the unforgiving minute
    With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
    Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
    And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

    IF by Rudyard Kipling

    I thought it needed posted in this thread.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  12. #191
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    Maybe zero tolerance is about cowardice, maybe it is about laziness, maybe both. Personally, I thick zero tolerance is about the inability to apply critical thinking skills to discern when something is ok that in other circumstance might be wholly unacceptable. Character, courage, and desire to make a difference are of course all requirements to make good and informed judgements. Most folks in leadership positions have neither to these qualities.
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  13. #192
    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    Here:
    That is but a small sample of primary sources for the failure of K-12 to adequately prepare students for collegiate work.
    Thank you. Can you tell me, do these reports account for the massively larger number of students attending college as compared to the past?

    This obviously will cause the decline of civilization as we know it today.
    No, not obviously. It's not good, certainly, but it is reversible.

    The inability to communicate verbally or in writing is a fundamental skill which typically sets us apart, from say, water buffalo or ferrets.
    Water buffalo maybe, but ferrets are freaking smart.

    Spending resources needlessly will ultimately cause inefficiencies in our system which will doom us to producing cheap plastic widgets for export to the technological powerhouses in Africa. Thus, we are doomed and civilization will fail. I just can't understand why you do not grasp that obvious concept.
    The countries that are already clobbering us in terms of manufacturing aren't doing so because they are more literate. They are doing it because of their ability to exploit nearly powerless workers.

    Hmmmmm: Murrah Building OKC: The building was the target of the Oklahoma City bombing on April 19, 1995, which killed 168 people, including 19 children. Not a school per say, but it had a daycare immediately above and to the south of the epicenter of the blast.;
    Two things. No, you don't get to count the Murrah building as a school massacre, come on, you're better than that. More importantly though, we appear to have a misunderstanding about what we're talking about. I thought it was obvious that we were talking about massacres within the U.S. So Beslan, etc. weren't relevant to me.

    None of the bullying links you posted disagreed with what mine said. At most, they said that cyber bullying is up, but they do not argue that its increase makes up for the decreases in traditional bullying. And at least one explicitly said that bullying is way down, just as I said.

  14. #193
    Senior Member Array sigs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    Thank you. Can you tell me, do these reports account for the massively larger number of students attending college as compared to the past?
    Attendance is one thing, actually being able to graduate is quite another. Note that the US is dead last in college graduation rates. Note also that one of the top reasons is that they are "not being prepared for the rigors of academic work" which is exactly what Rock and Glock stated. Note also that the study was done by Harvard not some mean, nasty conservative group or that evil empire Fox News.

    Why college students stop short of a degree | Reuters
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  15. #194
    Distinguished Member Array DontTreadOnI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    Thank you. Can you tell me, do these reports account for the massively larger number of students attending college as compared to the past?
    I've been sitting out of this thread since I got a slap on the wrist, but I have to give you a little insight. It's not hard to go to college these days, especially when you can get everyone but yourself to pay for it (not talking about Harvard here, because you are talking about a majority).

    I'm in college and have been for the last few years. I work full time now and still take a few classes a week. All of my friends are in college, from community college to uni's, and when I read what you wrote I had to spit my coffee back into my cup. Just because someone is in college means nothing. You would be surprised at the amount of people that fail and at the amount of people that just barely get by. There may be a lot of people in college, but from what I see, and it is sad, that doesn't mean that they were ready for it.
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    If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

  16. #195
    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DontTreadOnI View Post
    I've been sitting out of this thread since I got a slap on the wrist, but I have to give you a little insight. It's not hard to go to college these days, especially when you can get everyone but yourself to pay for it (not talking about Harvard here, because you are talking about a majority).

    I'm in college and have been for the last few years. I work full time now and still take a few classes a week. All of my friends are in college, from community college to uni's, and when I read what you wrote I had to spit my coffee back into my cup. Just because someone is in college means nothing. You would be surprised at the amount of people that fail and at the amount of people that just barely get by. There may be a lot of people in college, but from what I see, and it is sad, that doesn't mean that they were ready for it.
    You completely missed my point. I know it's easier to get into college. That was my point. How much of the claimed drop in skills is due not to people getting dumber or less well educated, but by people who would not have been in college say, 30 or 40 years ago, being there now. I'm not saying this is the case, I'm asking if it's possible and if so, how much of that accounts for the claimed drop in skills.

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