Is our government getting ready For a Civil War

This is a discussion on Is our government getting ready For a Civil War within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by mlr1m The problem is not with the intent of such laws. It is the danger that they will be used for reasons ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    The problem is not with the intent of such laws. It is the danger that they will be used for reasons other than what they were intended for. Many of these measures would never be accepted if it were believed that they might be used for anything other than the most extreme emergencies. Right now there are people pushing the use of terrorism laws against gangs. Not everyone that has 25 pounds of black powder in their spare room is a terrorist. Nor should they be treated as such. We allowed the expansion of laws allowing asset forfeiture in cases where criminal guilt could not be proven. These laws are now being used in ways they were never intended to be used.
    extreme measures are indeed needed during extreme times. We must make sure that they are only used during those times. The Government if not closely watched will use those powers we have given it against us. Having a handy secret group of Judges that approve warrants would be scary if they used it against us instead of the terrorist it was meant for. But, how will we ever know for sure it isn't abused?

    Michael
    I was just making a simple statement. Any law or EO can be perverted. Duh. The EO's I was referring to were signed by Kennedy in 1962. Could they be used for nefarious purposes? Yes. But if you read them you really have to go out on a limb to beleive they could be used for labor camps and such. Hence, the tinfoil folks are obsessed with them. I am not and I am not worried about them. I am more concerned about recent acts from the Patriotic Act to the new NDAA which are specific and in of themselves bring up COnstitutional questions

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  3. #32
    Member Array Horsetrader's Avatar
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    "Improvise, adapt, overcome."

  4. #33
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdp751 View Post
    Don't you just love the fact that we are paying the salaries of all these politicians who are doing this to us, and we are paying for all this ammunition that might be used against us. Our own government has their own doomsday plan with bunkers under the ground secret places and a stockpile ammunition food and they stockpile everything they might need .... But yet if we stockpile ammunition or weapons or food we are considered extremist and probably put on a list . Is this really happening or are we just paranoid, and if it is really happening how come it is not publicized. it seems the only people who are paying attention are the people in the firearms culture you know all of us the troublemakers
    Iread this and immediately made a tinfoil hat and started watching for the black helicopters. LOL

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    I find it rather startling, that a lot of you guys find this idea so far fetched, and out of the realm of possibility.

    You guys took the time to obtain a concealed weapon permit, train and train and train,,,, for what?
    In case something as remote as an armed robbery, you would be prepared.

    Why is it a stretch, for something like this to happen, yet some of you obsess to the point of ridiculous continuum with carrying a firearm for protection?

    Everyone thinks the USofA must somehow be immune to anything of the sort, contrary to a lot of indications around the world that shows the powers that be wish it to be so.
    Why does our government try to mainstream everything?
    Political Correctness, is lurking around every corner, why.?



    The United Nations is a farce.
    Why does it exist, and recieve the money it does when it is useless?
    Because it will be the rule of law around the world.
    I don't discount anything. However there are only so many threats that I can respond to. There are imaginary threats, perceived threats, possible threats, impending threats, and actual threats. So many threats, so little time. Sooner or later, one must establish priorities. Your threat has been duly recorded and is being tracked. That's the best I can do.
    Stubborn likes this.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  6. #35
    Member Array MisterAvis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubenZ View Post
    The govt would lose! No soldier will wanna back our current POS president.
    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    I guess you didn't see them pawing and gushing all over him during his Afghanistan visit.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." -Obligatory Founding Father Quote

  7. #36
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Heck, we very nearly had a complete financial meltdown a few years ago, and another one still threatens. And how about a strong solar flare (they happen all the time), which knocks out a large portion of the power grid? I can envision many more potential disasters too. This is not Tin Foil hat stuff - it's real stuff, that's happening now.
    DontTreadOnI likes this.
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  8. #37
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    Conspiracy theroy. Have Jesse ventura check it out.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    Heck, we very nearly had a complete financial meltdown a few years ago, and another one still threatens. And how about a strong solar flare (they happen all the time), which knocks out a large portion of the power grid? I can envision many more potential disasters too. This is not Tin Foil hat stuff - it's real stuff, that's happening now.
    Humans seem to fear low probability events with more fear than they do high probability events. We all get in our auto
    everyday without expressing fear. Yet, 30-40 K of us will die in our cars this year and another few hundred thousand will suffer
    great injury while in a car. OTOH, no one has died in a US Civil War
    in 150 years nor is there a realistic chance of it happening again. There is more chance of winning
    a lottery (a big one at that) than of you as an individual getting harmed in a civil war here; unless you try to cause it.
    Then our police and other LEOs will see to it that you are harmed --as they should.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    There are no "conspiracies."
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Wait a minute... What about those 57 guys who signed the Declaration of Independence?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Didn't they conspire against their current government? To start a "civil" war against it, if need be?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Didn't they claim they were protected in their conspiracy by Divine Providence (wasn't that the equivalent of today's tin foil hat)?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."
    .
    .
    .
    .
    The population of the colonies in 1776 was somewhere around 2.5 million. 57 guys changed history for those 2.5 million (and the rest of us)... That's about .00225 percent (22 thousandths of 1 percent).

    Today, to have the same percentage of population start a "revolutionary war" against our government... you'd need about
    6,750 people of a like mindset to foment civil war...
    .
    .
    .
    .

    there are nearly 10X that number that are claimed as members of DC...
    .
    .
    .
    .

    See, you can make numbers do anything you want. So if ten percent of the membership of DC decided that our government was out of line... we could start our own revolution! Or not.

    But, with the internet, sorting and filtering those of a like mind... anything is possible... we're seeing it in the Arab spring... summer, fall, winter, and another spring...

    "When you get angry enough, grab your rifle and run outside. If you're the only one there, it's not time yet!" I just checked... it isn't time yet... maybe tomorrow...
    Stubborn, DontTreadOnI and tkruf like this.
    Politicians, take note of Colorado 9/10/2013.
    "You are elected to service, not power.
    Your job is to "serve us" not to lord power over us."
    Me, 9/11/13

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    There are no "conspiracies."
    .
    Wait a minute... What about those 57 guys who signed the Declaration of Independence?
    ..
    Didn't they conspire against their current government? To start a "civil" war against it, if need be?
    .
    ..
    Actually NOT. But you have to know some history beyond what they teach in 8th grade or in most US History Courses
    to grasp that reality.

    Moreover, their actions were NOT the actions of a handful of self-appointed self-righteous individuals conspiring in dark
    corners. Each was an elected or appointed delegate from their state of origin. And even more importantly, hostilities
    began before the declaration --like two years before.

    The distinction I'm drawing is that the governments of the colonies in N America collectively decided to tell England to
    go jump in the big pond. The Declaration didn't come from conspirators. It is a huge difference, and one type of action
    has a legitimacy that the other lacks.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Humans seem to fear low probability events with more fear than they do high probability events. We all get in our auto
    everyday without expressing fear. Yet, 30-40 K of us will die in our cars this year and another few hundred thousand will suffer
    great injury while in a car. OTOH, no one has died in a US Civil War
    in 150 years nor is there a realistic chance of it happening again. There is more chance of winning
    a lottery (a big one at that) than of you as an individual getting harmed in a civil war here; unless you try to cause it.
    Then our police and other LEOs will see to it that you are harmed --as they should.
    If you are talking about the frequency of occurence then yes a civil war is a much lower probability. But how many died in the last car accident and how many died in the last civil war? Will car accidents in the next five years kill about 10% of the military age population of the northern states and 30% of them in the south? The civil war (depending who you ask) killed between 615,000 and 750,000 combatants. That does not include non combatants, collateral damage etc.

    While a civil war is statistically less likely to occur, if it does you are more likely to be killed in it than in a car accident.

    How many "big lottery" winners have there been in the last hundred and fifty years?
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Whether or not the Founding Fathers were conspirators or not all depend on which side you were on. The same applies to the legitimacy of their actions. I have even talked to some very well educated folks who tell me that we have never rebelled against our government. I guess they believe that it would somehow be anti-government to admit that we have overthrown our government in the past.

    Michael

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Humans seem to fear low probability events with more fear than they do high probability events. We all get in our auto
    everyday without expressing fear. Yet, 30-40 K of us will die in our cars this year and another few hundred thousand will suffer
    great injury while in a car.
    OTOH, no one has died in a US Civil War
    in 150 years nor is there a realistic chance of it happening again. There is more chance of winning
    a lottery (a big one at that) than of you as an individual getting harmed in a civil war here; unless you try to cause it.
    Then our police and other LEOs will see to it that you are harmed --as they should.
    There is a difference between what dangers a person voluntarily exposes himself to and the dangers others might impose on me. I ride a bike and whats worse I choose not to wear a helmet. Does that mean I am being somehow foolish because I also wear a weapon to protect myself with when I am riding?

    Michael

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Actually NOT. But you have to know some history beyond what they teach in 8th grade or in most US History Courses
    to grasp that reality.

    Moreover, their actions were NOT the actions of a handful of self-appointed self-righteous individuals conspiring in dark
    corners. Each was an elected or appointed delegate from their state of origin. And even more importantly, hostilities
    began before the declaration --like two years before.

    The distinction I'm drawing is that the governments of the colonies in N America collectively decided to tell England to
    go jump in the big pond. The Declaration didn't come from conspirators. It is a huge difference, and one type of action
    has a legitimacy that the other lacks.
    Thanks for the insult... Beyond an eighth grade education... Thanks Hop...

    So, what your telling me is that, say, oh about 535 folks, give or take... you know, the duly elected "delegates" in this country... could decide for us that instead of a democratic republic, we should become a socialist state... So it takes LESS than 22,000ths of 1 percent... FAR LESS to determine the future of our country...hmmmm... I guess I hadn't thought of that!

    Now, did those original 57 guys each represent the majority of their constituencies, or just the squeaky wheels (you know, the ones with the tinfoil hats)?

    There are some estimates that the population of Tories (Royalists or Loyalists) prior to the revolution was about 35% (say around 850,000) and that the remainder of the population was pretty equally divided between "Patriots" and couch potatoes (those who didn't care one way or the other)...

    So, the answer is no... they didn't necessarily represent the majority of the population... but their own designs on the new world. And even if they did represent the majority of the population in their own representation... what about the rights of the minority..?

    To bring it into parallel with today's world... the state of Illinois, heavily weighted by the population center on Lake Michigan... has decided that no one in that state has the constitutional right to keep and BEAR arms... To keep them... okay... as long as every single one is registered, every single gun owner is identified (FOID) card... Perhaps they are preparing for a civil war in Illinois? By trying to keep arms out of the hands of those who would like to be able to BEAR them as well as keep them... Tell me that couldn't be said... 100% accurate... prolly not... but it's not a far leap to being truth.

    8th grade education indeed... that was uncalled for... Igots me a high school edumication! and some beyond as well... buddy.
    Politicians, take note of Colorado 9/10/2013.
    "You are elected to service, not power.
    Your job is to "serve us" not to lord power over us."
    Me, 9/11/13

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Whether or not the Founding Fathers were conspirators or not all depend on which side you were on. The same applies to the legitimacy of their actions. I have even talked to some very well educated folks who tell me that we have never rebelled against our government. I guess they believe that it would somehow be anti-government to admit that we have overthrown our government in the past.

    Michael
    NO. I certainly understand why almost everyone commonly thinks of them as rebels gathered in a room for the sole purpose
    of conspiring to challenge England, but the reality was quite different. They initially assembled with the blessings of
    their respective colonial governments to find a path toward peace. Most were well off and war was not something (never is something) the well off want as it tends to destroy their wealth. England made peace impossible, as it did again in the
    run up to the war of 1812, but as I wrote, the delegates in Philadelphia were not self-appointed, self-righteous individuals
    acting upon their own judgment and without backing from larger legitimate governmental bodies.

    The US has been on a kind of perpetual brink of civil war since day 1. It almost happened during the Adams administration
    and several times thereafter pre-actual civil war. The core reason is a structural failure within our constitution. Almost
    all of our political quarrels and debates stem from the fact that at the very start there was severe disagreement as to
    whether the people wanted a strong central government or an individual-state-centric government. The former were called
    Federalists (As the present majority of our SC consider themselves, or at least try to portray themselves).

    Jefferson represented the 180 opposite view until he was Prez and decided he had the opportunity to buy Louisiana without Congressional consent. At that point, his "strict constructionist limited view of The Executive Power" went out the window.

    An uneasy compromise of sorts was achieved but the compromise satisfies no one. So we still argue over it.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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