Seizure law riles Cooper City residents - Page 2

Seizure law riles Cooper City residents

This is a discussion on Seizure law riles Cooper City residents within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; The article states that ethe owner must be compensated, and that the equipment has to be returned in the same condition it was in when ...

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Thread: Seizure law riles Cooper City residents

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    The article states that ethe owner must be compensated, and that the equipment has to be returned in the same condition it was in when borrowed.

    As much as I don't like it, it is Constitutional, and the states and Federal govts have the same power already.


    No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.


  2. #17
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    As much as I don't like it, it is Constitutional, and the states and Federal govts have the same power already.
    I beg to differ.

    without just compensation... means right there on the spot...not 30 days later, or 60 days later or a year later just because some politician makes it so.

    Fact of the matter is...precious few local governments are going to be able to compensate on the spot, escpecially in a time of crisis.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
    The article states that ethe owner must be compensated, and that the equipment has to be returned in the same condition it was in when borrowed.
    While the news article doesn't indicate what that ordinance's definition of "compensation" is, likely it would only be up to the purchase price of the item. In times of need, there is no price that can compensate for the lost use of an item, if that item is crucial. Water, food, tools, rope, fuel, vehicle, defensive weapons/ammo. I'm all for helping. Absolutely. BTDT. I've lived in communities where emergencies have happened, and those that could offer up items and labor did so ... up to but not exceeding the limits of what would then endanger their own families (via loss of water, food, fuel, vehicle, weapons), and they did not have their equipment taken by the "powers" as seen fit by those powers.

    Such power is one more instance of bureaucratic thinking: the gov't will protect you; the gov't knows best; your use of tools/supplies isn't as good of a use as their use, in such times. Not good enough.

    With such an ordinance, I hardly think I'd be asked about how I would be impacted ... even if left flooded or damaged, with no fresh water, with no tools and unable to move/travel (for help, supplies, whatever). That's the point. This type of ordinance removes a person's justified control over his/her own immediate and necessary use of emergency tools/supplies. There simply is no just compensation in such situations, yet this ordinance makes no provision for recourse/appeal, nor does it specify limits to that authority. To my way of thinking, that's too far by half.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osanmike View Post
    "There's always the possibility of abuse of power," Commissioner Elliot Kleiman said, "but it's not going to happen here."

    Is there a scarier statement that a politician saying "TRUST ME"
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

  5. #20
    Member Array osanmike's Avatar
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    Yes there is. "I'm with the government and I'm here to help"
    "No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the Congress is in session."
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  6. #21
    Member Array soflasmg's Avatar
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    Please post the article citation.

    I have a house in that town and would like to print it for reference.
    The Marshmallowist

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    A law is only unconstitutional when the Superme Court says that it is.

    Nothing in the Constitution says that the compensation has to be immediate, nor does it say who decides what's "just".

    People often read into the Constituion what they THINK it says or should say... but it only says what it says, no more no less.

    God forbit we ever fight a war here on US soil again. But if it happens and I need the diesel in your truck's tank to put in my tank's tank in order to continue the fight, you'll get a handwritten reciept on a piece of notebook paper with my name, rank, SSN, date and how much diesel was taken either put in your hand or under the windshield wiper of the truck... but the fuel WILL end up in my tank, and you get to sort out payment for it with the Army whenever.

    I know many reading this won't like that, but it's not like this is something new. Private property gets taken into public service during wartime and emergencies all the time... War of 1812, Civil War, Spanish-American War, War with Mexico, WWI & WWII... horses, watercraft, firearms, even people's homes... how do you think Robert E. Lee's house became Arlington Natl Cemetary? They were burying Union dead there while his wife was still living in the house! It's happened during all of them, and will likely happen again.

    The owner of a gas station doesn't get to refuse to put gas in rescue vehicles unless the state pays his price in cash up front while people die from some disaster.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
    God forbit [sic] we ever fight a war here on US soil again. But if it happens and I need the diesel in your truck's tank to put in my tank's tank in order to continue the fight ... the fuel WILL end up in my tank, and you get to sort out payment for it with the Army whenever.
    My comments in this thread are not directed toward legitimate situations of war. They're directed at illegimate, locally-defined declarations of emergency. Witness our recent example, the post-Katrina hurricane "relief" of people's ability to defend themselves (via confiscation of firearms), an action that was designed to supposedly protect the approved protectors. That's simply not good enough. It's that sort of absolutism I'm speaking of.

    Private property gets taken into public service during wartime and emergencies all the time... War of 1812, Civil War, Spanish-American War, War with Mexico, WWI & WWII... horses, watercraft, firearms, even people's homes...
    I have no qualms with times of war. It's the garden-variety emergencies where those in "authority" (those currently with the power) get to dictate terms, pretty much without recourse or oversight. Over supplies and tools that aren't immediately crucial to the survival of my family, I'll bring it to the "supply depot" myself, in such times, with my blessings. But such items as are necessary to my survival or that of my family ... those items will neither be found nor taken. The point is, there are emergencies, and there are emergencies.

    When quoting those wars, recall the original one in which resistance against just such despotism and absolutism was a primary impetus behind the creation of this country. Bad stuff, that. A founding pricinciple worth defending, actually. Caution, when taking such steps, doing so only up to the point where a perceived need of those security items/tools deprives one group with immediate need in order to supply another, different, more-deserving (?) group.

    The owner of a gas station doesn't get to refuse to put gas in rescue vehicles unless the state pays his price in cash up front while people die from some disaster.
    A retail store's goods are not crucial supplies. They're long-term tools. So, such things are not applicable to the distinctions being made here.

    Big, big difference. Longer-range quantities of fuel are not comparable to the cacheable security/survival items such as firearms, ammunition, basic amounts of fuel, food, water, basic clothing, rope, knife, required medicines and other similar items that are crucial to the immediate safety and security of the family. Those are the items I'm speaking of. I take precautions to protect these. Those that come to take them will not find them. Such items will be defended. That is as it should be.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  9. #24
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    I hear ya, tanksoldier, and I agree with you on your point.

    I think one of the biggest points being made here is that the city doesn't appear to be planning to prepare, they appear to be planning to take what citizens have bought/built to prepare themselves. People who don't bother to prepare to help themselves are being helped by the government who just took things away from the people who did prepare.

    This makes it appear like it's easier and cheaper to not prepare and wait for the government to rescue you; insead of preparing and losing your preparations, which now puts you in the same situation as those that didn't bother to prepare, e.g. the city has just taken away your chainsaws and trucks to evacuate others and now you can't leave and must wait for the city to come back and rescue you with your own equipment when they get around to it.

    Yes, there are people who are unable to help themselves and do need help. I can't expect the elderly on fixed incomes to have sufficient resources or physical abilities to go, but I can expect that a large nursing home in a hurricane zone to have plans in place (owned or contracted) for sufficient bussing to evacuate in case of emergency. If the government goes around confiscating busses and other resources because they did not get it planned out in the first place, everyone else's plans fall to s**t and now the government has to rescue everyone, even the ones they would not have had to rescue in the first place.

    Yes there are things that can't be planned for (war and large scale attacks), but there are things that can and should be planned for and handled ahead of time.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

  10. #25
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    Nothing in the Constitution says that the compensation has to be immediate, nor does it say who decides what's "just".
    Nor does it say it can be indefinate or 1 or 3 or 6 months later. "Just compensation" would mean fair market value for such item, payable at the time of exchange,just like all other transactions are done. It is not what some ill mannered puke like the mayor of NewOrleans that operates on a whim or a fancy or a Police Chief that ignores law says it is.

    People often read into the Constituion what they THINK it says or should say... but it only says what it says, no more no less.
    Thats right. It was written to be understood by the average person, not sliced,diced and re interpreteted by a team of laywers or judges or Supreme beings in black robes with no underwear.One must use common sense when reading it.

    Like others have so aptly stated, we are not talking about a shooting war here, where all bets are off. Heck, if there was one I'd more than likely be right smack in the middle of it.

    We are talking about Politicians doing what they do best, milking the common man of his possesions in one way or another and using whatever means nessecary to justify it.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  11. #26
    Member Array jwphillips2's Avatar
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    "I have similar complaints with our local city government with regards to illegal searches. Our local "building inspector" was caught in my driveway pilfering through our vehicles. When I went to have a little sit down with the mayor, he pretty much told me that the city would do whatever it liked. Needless to say I will be voting for his competition this november."

    Tresspassing, breaking and entering, illegal search and seizure, etc... Naw, he was "just shopping"!

  12. #27
    Member Array GarySlinger's Avatar
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    "Molon Labe" - it's not just about guns.

    All attempted acts of theft will be treated exactly as such... 'nuff said.

    G.

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