Caribou Coffee denies access to DC - Page 4

Caribou Coffee denies access to DC

This is a discussion on Caribou Coffee denies access to DC within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Tangle E.g. idealism that says if we could disarm society, society would be a better, safer place. But that's been proven wrong ...

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  1. #46
    Senior Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    E.g. idealism that says if we could disarm society, society would be a better, safer place. But that's been proven wrong throughout history.
    It is a better safer place for those who are still armed
    Tangle and OD* like this.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricolordad View Post
    I do believe that you Canucks used your freedom of expression to declare President Bush a war ciminal and threatened to arrest him if he entered Canada. That example shows that our two governements are vastly different and incompatible and are therefore unable to be compared to each other at any level other than us vs them.
    Canada did not declare Bush a war criminal nor did they offer asylum to members of the US military who deserted and fled to Canada to aviod deployment to Iraq.

    Brattleboro Vermont did issue an arrest warrent for Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld for war crimes
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    There is much more to liberalism than the opposite stand on issues. Idealism is the driving force for libs.

    E.g. idealism that says if we could disarm society, society would be a better, safer place. But that's been proven wrong throughout history.
    Idealism would seem to be distinct from liberal or conservative, but common to both. Certainly many conservatives believe that "if only we would .... that we would be better off". To place blame for this behavior or thought process mostly or entirely on the political left is to perpetuate the problem. If either side were inherently correct in their views, there would be no argument. In terms of DC, it is an absolute fallacy to assume that everyone here is conservative. Being liberal is not the same as being an anti, even though many antis are also liberal.

  4. #49
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    tricolordad,
    I understand how you feel. But, the coffee shop is not violating your 1st Amendment rights. The 1A is a right against the government suppressing speech, not private people or businesses.

    However, and this is going to sound contradictory and I realize that, I do believe there is some differences in the right to be armed and freedom of speech. The right to go armed is a protective issue. A business that bans guns takes away the right of an individual to protect himself. Sometimes the impact goes far beyond the private property. E.g. in Tennessee, AT&T, Fed Ex, and some others lobby our legislators to not pass bills allowing their employees to leave guns in their cars in their parking lots. That not only takes away the right to carry on private property, but the right to carry to and from work as well. They essentially don't have the right to carry at all.

    Speech is different. You may not be allowed to say something on someone's property, but you can say anything you want while traveling to and from their property.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I would agree that suppressing speech in a private facility is indeed common - it goes on right here in Defensive Carry. Primarily the suppression here is to keep things friendly and family friendly. In fact political posts are not allowed, again in an effort to keep things friendly. That's not politically driven, but rather protective in nature. In fact, anti-gunners can post here, they'll be assailed, but as long as they adhere to the board rules they won't be suppressed by the board per se.

    Other 'facilities' are driven by political agendas. They suppress to protect a political tenet.


    Good for you, and I couldn't agree more. But there are left/right things such as blocking certain sites because the facility finds the sites disagree with their political positions.


    Yep, I see the confusion now. Liberalism in the US is essentially the opposite of libertarianism.
    It is not all politics that you ban or try to censure. I have been reminded several times by mods to stop the "NRA bashing" even though what I have posted is 100 percent factual or a personal opinion.
    That is after I have stated that though I am no longer a member I will contribute to what I feel is a good cause they are currently fighting for. And I have also said i do not dissuade people to not join the NRA or GOA. But just stating my opinions and facts on a gun forum (and the NRA is defintily a topic here) have been addressed as "bashing"

  6. #51
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    I think that in a day and time where the constitutionally granted freedom to carry a gun is always under attack, politics are unable to be left out of it at one level or another.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    Idealism would seem to be distinct from liberal or conservative, but common to both. Certainly many conservatives believe that "if only we would .... that we would be better off". To place blame for this behavior or thought process mostly or entirely on the political left is to perpetuate the problem.
    Nobody is saying non-libs are not influenced by idealism, but I am saying they are to a significant lesser degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    ...If either side were inherently correct in their views, there would be no argument.
    I completely disagree with that! Who is correct has little to do with it. All that matters is does it promote the idealism held by the opposing party.


    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    ...In terms of DC, it is an absolute fallacy to assume that everyone here is conservative. Being liberal is not the same as being an anti, even though many antis are also liberal.
    I agree! Not all libs are anti-gun, but wouldn't you agree that most are? Isn't it true that far more libs are anti-gun than non-libs?

    And not all conservatives are pro-gun, but most are, wouldn't you agree?

    While most believe that liberal pro-gunners are few in perspective, what makes them liberal is other issues. Then that opens up a whole different discussion that we cannot pursue.
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  8. #53
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    Im not a mod, but this thread is a bit political isnt it?
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    It is not all politics that you ban or try to censure. I have been reminded several times by mods to stop the "NRA bashing" even though what I have posted is 100 percent factual or a personal opinion.
    That is after I have stated that though I am no longer a member I will contribute to what I feel is a good cause they are currently fighting for. And I have also said i do not dissuade people to not join the NRA or GOA. But just stating my opinions and facts on a gun forum (and the NRA is defintily a topic here) have been addressed as "bashing"
    Opinions of the performance of the NRA vary widely. The question is, from start to now would we have been better off without the NRA or with them even with what we might consider mistakes?

    It's awfully easy to become single issue focused and become blinded to other benefits. I was really miffed at the NRA for a spell until someone asked me if I thought we would have been better off with or without the existence of the NRA.

    I think we can become disillusioned by what we think the NRA can do. They aren't a god; they have probably had to choose between two evils many times. Kind of like a guy plea bargaining to a lesser offense even when he knows he's innocent but if he should lose his case, he fears the result could be exceedingly costly.

    So, can you honestly say that we would now be significantly better off if we had never had the NRA?

    Being critical of the NRA can be at various levels. Some in their all knowing, demonize the NRA and blame them for what we don't have instead of being appreciative of where we are today because of their efforts.

    I think we have to weigh things like how many states now have concealed carry and the many cases the NRA has supported to bring about more gun rights.

    If we compare the NRA's budget to the anti-gunners budget potential, Soros alone could swamp the NRA's budget. Money moves political issues such as gun control. It's a wonder the NRA has been able to get anything done.
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  10. #55
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    Question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Im not a mod, but this thread is a bit political isnt it?
    Answer:
    Quote Originally Posted by tricolordad View Post
    I think that in a day and time where the constitutionally granted freedom to carry a gun is always under attack, politics are unable to be left out of it at one level or another.
    But, let's do get back on topic - whatever it was
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricolordad View Post
    That example shows that our two governements are vastly different and incompatible and are therefore unable to be compared to each other at any level other than us vs them.
    Well, culturally, you & I are clearly fairly distant. But, in the end, our Common Law has a similar root and a similar technical basis. You'll find that when it comes to legal matters, a lot of the interpretation and vibe are similar, even if the laws themselves are different. Good luck maintaining your viewpoint that I'm one of the "them" :)
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  12. #57
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    OK, guys, we're off topic, I have been too, so once again, a reminder to us all - back on topic.
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  13. #58
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    I wouldn't say we've really gotten off topic. Instead we've looked at the issue of inability to access the sites from:
    1-a technical, filtering, perspective
    2-a legal (1st-A) and non applicability standpoint
    3-property rights
    4-censorship of disagreement
    5-cultural aspect, domestic vs. foreign, regional, and Liberal vs. Conservative.

    All in all, I think its been a fascinating topic. I still would bet that (per the Occam's Razor principle) that there was little or no deliberate thought or action and that a generic filter subscription was applied that removes anything controversial.

    Interestingly, I've found that these filters tend to be used more in private organizations than public. For example, where I work (state institution) there is no nanny filter and the simple rules are: don't do illegal stuff, don't try to break into or scan other machines (illegal or rude), and don't intentionally access pornography unless there is a legitimate business purpose. When I last worked for a corporation, I routinely needed to bypass the damn Bluecoat to access engineering data sites (blocked - educational).

  14. #59
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    Sometimes the gander will type something that the geese may or may not be able to get away with since the gander is here for hours a day running through all of the forum topics - some of which he has absolutely no interest in reading but, must read and review anyway in addition to watching all of the posted videos and checking out all of the posted links looking for rule violations and answering never ending PMs from forum members having questions and forum related problems in addition to working hard with the other Admin and Moderators to keep the forum SPAM free....and the gander does all that gratis and with no pay.

    So if the goose ever doesn't like what the gander types once every blue moon...or once in every thousand posts...then the goose should either just honk it to himself or the goose should just PM the gander about it because if the goose has a decent memory then the goose will remember that the goose is only still here because the gander was feeling charitable and did not feel like justifiably cooking the goose on that one particular day way back when.

    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    In bold:what 1st A issue?
    Mods here make it clear that they have the right to censure what they want on DC.
    What is good for the goose is good for the gander ya know.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Sometimes the gander will type something that the geese may or may not be able to get away with since the gander is here for hours a day running through all of the forum topics - some of which he has absolutely no interest in reading but, must read and review anyway in addition to watching all of the posted videos and checking out all of the posted links looking for rule violations and answering never ending PMs from forum members having questions and forum related problems in addition to working hard with the other Admin and Moderators to keep the forum SPAM free....and the gander does all that gratis and with no pay.

    So if the goose ever doesn't like what the gander types once every blue moon...or once in every thousand posts...then the goose should either just honk it to himself or the goose should just PM the gander about it because if the goose has a decent memory then the goose will remember that the goose is only still here because the gander was feeling charitable and did not feel like justifiably cooking the goose on that one particular day way back when.
    Totally beat me to saying that...
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