GM to open factory in China

This is a discussion on GM to open factory in China within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by kukla they didn't steal from us, we openly and willingly let them have it they are not our friends, and it has ...

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kukla View Post
    they didn't steal from us, we openly and willingly let them have it
    they are not our friends, and it has already bit us in a big way
    we are, indeed, crazy to be dealing with them in this way
    who didn't see this coming?
    I agree that we have given a lot away to China but they do steal all sorts of technology. There are fake Apple stores in Shanghai (and other places in China) that have no connection with "Apple" yet look exactly like Apple stores and the product looks the same. They do this will all sorts of designer things like purses, jeans...you name it.

    I actually do understand the economics of a lot of it, what I hate is the hypocrisy of politicians who run on "Sending jobs to China" while doing the exact same thing.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    This is it. China has become GM's largest market in the world. In China, the Buick is one of the premium luxury car lines. At the other end, the sub compacts that we shun here, they crave for the fuel efficiency, size & cost. From a corporate standpoint, it only makes since to build the product within you largest market if possible. How many Toyota, Honda, BMW, etc plants are in the US?

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by awanatech View Post
    This is it. China has become GM's largest market in the world. In China, the Buick is one of the premium luxury car lines. At the other end, the sub compacts that we shun here, they crave for the fuel efficiency, size & cost.
    Yes.

    One of the long-term benefits I see is that designs and techniques for fuel-efficient, light, durable cars can be honed in Market X but then more cost-effectively brought to Market Y when the market is right. With the behemoth/SUV type craze of the past 20yrs, one could argue the time hasn't been right. Nicely, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Smart are seeing it otherwise. Perhaps GM will get with the program, and perhaps due to nailing their efforts in some other, fuel-efficiency conscious market first.
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  5. #34
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    Another common misconception is that China hold the most US debt, they do not they only hold $1 trillion in US debt

    The largest holder is the U.S. Federal Reserve and other intergovernmental agencies with debt holdings of $6.328 trillion.

    So we are borrowing money from ourselves, which is nice if you can print money
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    Yes, that is true. And we only have the ability to endlessly print more money that is not backed backed up by either goods or services because we are still the world reserve currency for world trade & the purchase of oil...etc.
    The British Pound Sterling was the world reserve currency right up until the end of WWII & then the Brits lost that status. It took forever for them to recover their economy and life was HARD!
    Once/If we lose world reserve currency status...that is when a loaf of bread begins to cost a wheelbarrow full of U.S. Dollars.
    The reason why we are now buying our own debt is because China no longer wants it. Really nobody else wants it either.
    China is telling/warning us...Do Not Betray Our Investment In Your Country....& we are shrugging them off.
    Germany is now going to remove their Gold from U.S. soil (held for safekeeping) by the FED in NY ~ They no longer trust the Fed. They want their physical Gold back.
    Things are changing (big time) worldwide and the vast majority of the U.S. Sheeple population is not paying any attention. They are glued into Normalcy Bias Mode & Dancing With The Stars.
    Stock up on food folks. Keep a pantry. Buy up a lot of the food that you normally eat anyway because you'll pay a lot more for it next year so you might as well buy it now.
    It's a FACT that you're not going to stop eating next year so stock up now.
    We're already on Quantitative Easing III and endless printing of $$$ ~ it ain't helping things very much.
    Expect some false upticks that make it look like "things" are getting better but, they ultimately cannot get better because HUGE, MASSIVE economic problems are not being addressed or rectified.
    Next comes hyper-inflation knocking at the door.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    Another common misconception is that China hold the most US debt, they do not they only hold $1 trillion in US debt

    The largest holder is the U.S. Federal Reserve and other intergovernmental agencies with debt holdings of $6.328 trillion.

    So we are borrowing money from ourselves, which is nice if you can print money
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    Let's fix some common misconception:

    Generally, individual US taxpayers pay US tax on their worldwide income every year just like anyone else. There are some exceptions, but that is a general rule. So if Sixto makes $1,000 in China he pays the same US tax on that $1,000 as he pays on $1,000 earned in the USA. I have several "expatriate" taxpayer clients and they all follow this regime. There are a few twists and turns here, such as foreign tax credits and the foreign earned income exclusion, but the general rule is simple. Also note they, for the most part, also pay foreign taxes on said earnings.

    Corporations, say GM, are a wee bit different. The general rule is that their Foreign Source Income is subject to US tax when it is repatriated (brought home to the US). In the meantime however, they still may owe foreign tax on the income, but if they reinvest their earnings outside the US there is no US tax on those earnings.

    So..........the "painting" of "wealthy evil taxpayers expatriating $$ to cheat the IRS" is generally totally incorrect and generally factually wrong, but it is expedient for political purposes.

    I think GM wants a market position in China, and thus is opening Chinese factories to make cars to sell to the Chinese. I would also guess those cars would never qualify for import to the USA for numerous reasons. I would also guess those cars could not be manufactured in the USA and then shipped to China and maintain their competitive position on Chinese showroom floors. Just economics.

    I do agree the Chinese has stolen many industrial secrets from the US, US Companies, and others on a worldwide basis. I also agree they may compete unfairly.
    You make it sound like there is no advantage for the wealthy to move their money over seas. Yet the FACT is they ARE taking their money out of this country by the trillions. The Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Switzerland and a dozen or so countries are estimated to hold somewhere between 21 and 32 TRILLION dollars that the government can't tax. These tax havens are real and have NOTHING to do with political misconceptions.

    I don't look at the wealthy as "evil" and I don't think they should be punished in any way for their success however, I also don't think you need to feel sorry for them and give them tax breaks for NO OTHER REASON than they're wealthy.

    The trickle down theory has turned into the trickle OUT reality.

    Taking away money earned from the mother land (that gave you the opportunity in the first place) and taking it elsewhere does not seem like a very patriotic thing to do. Doesn't seem like team player. Your taking the ball across town to play leaving your teammates behind that gave you the ball in the first place.

    I am not criticizing them for making a lot of money nor am I suggesting they be punished because of their success. They SHOULD be given tax breaks for starting new bushiness's that create jobs but NOT TAX BREAKS JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE WEALTHY. Stop feeling sorry for them and painting a picture that THEY are the ones being picked on. Everyone should pay the same RATE.

    The misconception that the public wants to 'Punish' the wealthy is not true....No one wants to 'raise the tax rate on the wealthy'. They just want to put the tax rate BACK where it was. Nothing new. They've been there before and there's no need to feel sorry for them. They'll be just fine.
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  8. #37
    Member Array GunsAndViolince's Avatar
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    I think Jeanlouise has a good point about the lack of respect in China for Intellectual Property Rights. I have a pal who works at Ford who has often complained to me that when you put operations over there, you have to expect to hemorrhage tech and information. It's cultural, which is to say that the Chinese don't see it as a problem, which doesn't mean that it's right either. I think GM might end up regretting this if they aren't careful.

  9. #38
    Distinguished Member Array kapnketel's Avatar
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    The misconception that the public wants to 'Punish' the wealthy is not true....No one wants to 'raise the tax rate on the wealthy'. They just want to put the tax rate BACK where it was. Nothing new. They've been there before and there's no need to feel sorry for them. They'll be just fine.

    Yes, the public does want to punish the wealthy. Making them "pay their fair share" implies that they have gotten away with not paying their fair share. "They Didn't build that" means that they did not earn what they have, they did it on the backs of the poor downtrodden people. So lets get our piece of the pie...

    Its class envy pure and simple.
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  10. #39
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    That's because of the screw the rich taxation ides being thrown around on the hill. If you made a bunch of dough being an innovator/entrepreneur or with just plain hard work would you want to give half of it away to a bunch of lazy folks wanting a free hand out? I know I wouldn't. I'd be living out my American dream some place that didn't want to screw me.

    Let's remember something, most of these people created their wealth by earning it. They don't owe you or me a dime and they damn sure don't deserve to be punished for their success.

    For every person that gets something they didn't earn there is someone who earned something they didn't get.
    You paint a picture that the wealthy somehow worked harder for their money. The small guy earned his money also and in many cases they worked a lot harder to get it. They are not saying "screw the rich" but instead they are saying stop screwing the small guy.

    It's the small guy who pays the HIGHER tax rates.

    35% tax to the average guy or 14% to the wealthy guy. I wonder who feels it more? That 35% guy worked just as hard or harder. Why is he being punished with a higher rate? A bigger piece of their pie is being taken from them than the wealthy.
    It's not about "screw the rich"...it's about level the playing field. Like a flat tax. If they take 35% from me take 35% from the rich guy.

    If I produce a 14" apple pie they are taking 35% of that pie. (I worked hard to make it too) The wealthy guy produces a 100" apple pie but he only gets 14% of it taken. That's fair? This whole idea was sold to us on the trickle down theory but it turned out not to work the way. Reality has shown that the money trickles out and not down.
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  11. #40
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    We are going to soon have the highest corporate tax rate in the WORLD. Don't chase business away and they WILL stay.

  12. #41
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    You make it sound like there is no advantage for the wealthy to move their money over seas. Yet the FACT is they ARE taking their money out of this country by the trillions. The Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Switzerland and a dozen or so countries are estimated to hold somewhere between 21 and 32 TRILLION dollars that the government can't tax. These tax havens are real and have NOTHING to do with political misconceptions.
    If they are following the USA tax law, there is no great tax advantage. I did not say that there are not other advantages that are not tax driven, but for the most part they pay their taxes. Maybe they want to invest in foreign currencies managed by Basil, who knows.

    that the government can't tax
    This is factually incorrect. You are patently wrong.

    I don't look at the wealthy as "evil" and I don't think they should be punished in any way for their success however, I also don't think you need to feel sorry for them and give them tax breaks for NO OTHER REASON than they're wealthy.
    I don't feel sorry for them and did not say that I do. I do think that they are sometimes the VICTIMS of mischaracterized and misinformed attacks by the ignorant and jealous. I also do not know of these "Tax Breaks" they supposedly receive merely because they are wealthy. Would you care to elaborate? I have studied the IRC for over 30 years and never found a deduction that is only allowed those that make OVER some specified amount. Don't use the special 15% rate on dividends because that even applies to retirees, grandmothers and orphans that are not "wealthy".

    Taking away money earned from the mother land (that gave you the opportunity in the first place) and taking it elsewhere does not seem like a very patriotic thing to do. Doesn't seem like team player. Your taking the ball across town to play leaving your teammates behind that gave you the ball in the first place.
    It may well return if the investment climate improves. Money is fungible. It seeks the highest returns.

    Don't forget it was investors that financed the Pilgrims for a return. The investors sent their money outside of jolly old England <GASP!> seeking outsized investment returns.

    your teammates behind that gave you the ball in the first place.
    Wow. This is disingenuous to say the least. The environment may have been conducive to it, but capitalism is dynamic and seeks returns. GE did not continue to invest in coal fired steampowered ocean liners because America held the world's largest supply of coal.

    I am not criticizing them for making a lot of money nor am I suggesting they be punished because of their success. They SHOULD be given tax breaks for starting new bushiness's that create jobs but NOT TAX BREAKS JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE WEALTHY. Stop feeling sorry for them and painting a picture that THEY are the ones being picked on. Everyone should pay the same RATE.
    I already addressed most of this patently false comment, but the "Rate" comment shows you did not read or understand the illustrations about double and triple taxation. If you want everyone to pay the same RATE, that is easy, but it flies in the face of sound economic policy and tax policy. For instance, you thereby argue everyone should pay the same RATE regardless of ability. 20% then. Everybody pays 20%. Even those that pay 0% now, 10% now, 15% now. That is what you said. Everybody pays the same RATE. Not easy, and it does not work that way.

    NOT TAX BREAKS JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE WEALTHY
    Please show me ONE, just ONE. Don't use the special 15% rate on dividends because that even applies to retirees, grandmothers and orphans that are not "wealthy".

    The misconception that the public wants to 'Punish' the wealthy is not true....No one wants to 'raise the tax rate on the wealthy'. They just want to put the tax rate BACK where it was. Nothing new. They've been there before and there's no need to feel sorry for them. They'll be just fine.
    Putting it back where it was is RAISING it from where it is. That is not a major concept.

    Philosophically, I may not be different than you, but these shallow arguments of "sound bites" and "fairness" and "cheating" all revolve around attempts to cover the real culprits - out of control spending and NO GROWTH because our economy is being strangled by Washington D.C. If we start growing the pie there will be fewer stupid arguments on how to slice it up.

    If you want to see some classic examples of an out of control economy "sticking it to the (rich) man" and falling off of a fast cliff to nowhere, look at California, which by any measure is in its death throes financially as I type.

    35% tax to the average guy or 14% to the wealthy guy. I wonder who feels it more? That 35% guy worked just as hard or harder. Why is he being punished with a higher rate? A bigger piece of their pie is being taken from them than the wealthy.
    It's not about "screw the rich"...it's about level the playing field. Like a flat tax. If they take 35% from me take 35% from the rich guy.
    Here are the REAL tax rates you refer to with your fictional 35% average guy. Please note your "Average Guy" is making OVER $375,000:

    Here are the actual tax rates by income level:

    Single Filing Status


    10% on taxable income from $0 to $8,500, plus
    15% on taxable income over $8,500 to $34,500, plus
    25% on taxable income over $34,500 to $83,600, plus
    28% on taxable income over $83,600 to $174,400, plus
    33% on taxable income over $174,400 to $379,150, plus
    35% on taxable income over $379,150.

    Married Filing Jointly or Qualifying Widow(er) Filing Status


    10% on taxable income from $0 to $17,000, plus
    15% on taxable income over $17,000 to $69,000, plus
    25% on taxable income over $69,000 to $139,350, plus
    28% on taxable income over $139,350 to $212,300, plus
    33% on taxable income over $212,300 to $379,150, plus
    35% on taxable income over $379,150.
    Please get your facts straight. This is how it works generally:

    To correct another Tax "story":

    Dividends are taxed at 15% because they are paid out by corporations using after tax income. I.E. those are after tax dollars which are accumulated after a 35% corporate tax. So that $1,000 of income is taxed first ($350) at the corporate level, and $650 is paid out as a dividend taxed at 15% ($97.5) so the total tax on that $1,000 is $447.5. That is why the whining about a 15 or 20% rate is so disingenuous. That $1,000 was taxed at 44.75%

    Also don't forget Inheritances are given after a 50% Estate or Death Tax Rate, and those dollars are accumulated AFTER income taxes were paid on them. Trace $1,000 like this:

    Corporation earns $1,000 pays $350 tax
    Corporation pays $650 Dividend
    Individual receives $650 dividend
    Individual pays $97.5 tax
    Individual dies and pays 50% Death tax on $552.5 ($650 - $97.5=$552.50) Tax = $276.25

    Heirs receive $276.25 out of original $1,000 in earnings, governments keeps $723.75.

    Total tax burden WAS 72.375% plus or minus What's FAIR about the Feds keeping 72%? That's not even including the states!

    Now.........back to our regularly scheduled programming..............
    Let's get back to China. Open another thread in "Off Topic" if you want to debate tax policy.
    Last edited by Rock and Glock; November 29th, 2012 at 04:43 PM.
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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunsAndViolince View Post
    I think Jeanlouise has a good point about the lack of respect in China for Intellectual Property Rights. I have a pal who works at Ford who has often complained to me that when you put operations over there, you have to expect to hemorrhage tech and information. It's cultural, which is to say that the Chinese don't see it as a problem, which doesn't mean that it's right either. I think GM might end up regretting this if they aren't careful.
    i fully agree
    hhhmmmm lets see.............how many US govt military contracts might GM have
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    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    This is a non-story, IMO. GM as well as other "American" car companies have factories all over the world and it has been this way for years (its nothing new). GM has a factory in Australia. The Pontiac GTO (2004-2006) as well as the G8 was based on GM cars (Holden) that is/was made in Oz. Its also been said that Ford's most advanced factory is located in South America because our environmental laws that we have here would never allow for such a factory. Nevermind that America's muscle cars, Camaro & Challenger are made in respective plants in Canada.

    "American" car companies have plants all over the world producing car models that we have never heard of before because they never make it over here. I suspect that GM will make cars in China that will be intended for the immediate markets and the world will continue to spin on its axis.
    Couldn't have put it better myself. GM is doing what needs to be done to generate income... How else would we expect them to pay back their debt to the US government. Don't get mad at GM for the way they spend their welfare money, get mad at the idiots who gave the money away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    You make it sound like there is no advantage for the wealthy to move their money over seas. Yet the FACT is they ARE taking their money out of this country by the trillions. The Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Switzerland and a dozen or so countries are estimated to hold somewhere between 21 and 32 TRILLION dollars that the government can't tax. These tax havens are real and have NOTHING to do with political misconceptions.

    I don't look at the wealthy as "evil" and I don't think they should be punished in any way for their success however, I also don't think you need to feel sorry for them and give them tax breaks for NO OTHER REASON than they're wealthy.

    The trickle down theory has turned into the trickle OUT reality.

    Taking away money earned from the mother land (that gave you the opportunity in the first place) and taking it elsewhere does not seem like a very patriotic thing to do. Doesn't seem like team player. Your taking the ball across town to play leaving your teammates behind that gave you the ball in the first place.

    I am not criticizing them for making a lot of money nor am I suggesting they be punished because of their success. They SHOULD be given tax breaks for starting new bushiness's that create jobs but NOT TAX BREAKS JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE WEALTHY. Stop feeling sorry for them and painting a picture that THEY are the ones being picked on. Everyone should pay the same RATE.

    The misconception that the public wants to 'Punish' the wealthy is not true....No one wants to 'raise the tax rate on the wealthy'. They just want to put the tax rate BACK where it was. Nothing new. They've been there before and there's no need to feel sorry for them. They'll be just fine.
    You only really needed to say the part in bold. That rate would be 0%.
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  16. #45
    Distinguished Member Array kapnketel's Avatar
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    The only true objective of a corporation is to maximize the value of their shareholders' equity. If opening a plant in China does that, so much the better. I suggest everyone read what I consider the Bible of economics, Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" on the subject. In my mind the greatest economic thinker since Adam Smith.
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