LaPierre's speech

This is a discussion on LaPierre's speech within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Jeanlouise I know a lot of young guys that play Halo and COD and I have no problem with it because they ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post

    I know a lot of young guys that play Halo and COD and I have no problem with it because they aren' t mentally ill and won' t go out and reenact the scenes in reall life.
    How do you really know? What is to say that one day they won't just snap?

    I have played violent Video Games since I was a kid (I am currently playing Borderlands 2 and it is VIOLENT!). I love slasher flicks, monster movies, action adventure films...
    I like to think I am a pretty well adjusted, civil person, but what happens when one day a neuron misfires and I start thinking I am a golden god who needs to cleanse the earth? You can not regulate the ability of an American to play the games they want or watch the LEGAL movies they want.

    I really think this comes more to parenting than anything else that is a controllable thing. Still and all, some people snap and how do you know when that "nice quiet guy that lived next door and was never a problem." will go nuts?
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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    If someone is so mentally deranged that they will gun down first graders, no amount of good parenting will change that. Our ability to deal with mental issues is almost non existant thanks largely to the ACLU and HIIPA laws.

    Violent video games contribute to this problem. As I said, and is being inconveniently ignored by some, NORMAL people can play them and not act out. Mentally ill people have issues with them.

    Games that depict violence against children should be outlawed,just like child porn is.

    I know a lot of young guys that play Halo and COD and I have no problem with it because they aren' t mentally ill and won' t go out and reenact the scenes in reall life.
    How did HIPPA laws cause this tragedy? The boy did not buy a gun. He got it from his mother. Look at all of these other mass shootings....How many of them woould have HIPPA or lack of, been prevented? I have looked back to 1985 of all the mass shootings and hardly any of them would have been prevented by HIPPA.

    I wish folks would get off of that band wagon.

    There is one primary reason why this tragedy happened: the mother did not lock up her guns knowing her son was unstable
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  4. #48
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    Re: LaPierre's speech

    I'm sorry, but I think the NRA missed a great opportunity to help the world understand its mission with regards to guns. Instead of trying to pass the blame onto violent media like video games and movies (which is not to blame), he should have been touting the NRA's commitment to safe and responsible gun ownership. He should have insisted that the NRA is on the side of the american public and not the enemy of safety and security for our children.

    I also disagree with armed security in our schools for 2 reasons.

    1. Our schools are already too much like prison. We're acclimating our children to life in locked down buildings with very little ability to move around. Metal detectors, school police officers, drug sniffing dogs, random searches, security gates. We are training our children to live under the control of the state.

    2. Armed security can be known to the shooter and can make either a high priority target or a person to avoid. Lets face it, 1 armed security guard can only be in one place at a time. It would take just a few weeks of "casing" to determine the patterns of the guard and know when and where to strike to maximize damage before he can get there. And while having a gun on the campus is a significant improvement, making the shooter guess where and how many guns are on campus would be much greater deterrent. Isn't that the whole point to our argument for concealed carry in the first place? So that the criminal doesn't know who has the ability to stop him?

    For these reasons I advocate allowing all administrators, teachers, and support personnel the option to carry concealed. Not in a locked drawer in their desk but on their person. Why couldn't the NRA not have suggested this? I believe that they want to appease people who believe the silly notion that a uniform somehow makes someone more qualified to carry a gun.This does not help our case that citizens with guns are the best deterrent of violent crime, not to mention our right to life by means of self-defense.

    The NRA needs to man up and make a strong case for citizens with guns are our friends, not our enemies.

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  5. #49
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWBracelets View Post
    I also disagree with armed security in our schools for 2 reasons.

    1. Our schools are already too much like prison. We're acclimating our children to life in locked down buildings with very little ability to move around. Metal detectors, school police officers, drug sniffing dogs, random searches, security gates. We are training our children to live under the control of the state.
    How many of these current measures are really about keeping the schools safe versus how many of them are about pure control?

    For these reasons I advocate allowing all administrators, teachers, and support personnel the option to carry concealed. Not in a locked drawer in their desk but on their person. Why couldn't the NRA not have suggested this? ]
    While I agree with your position, I also think that too many consider (feel) this option is too radical. The NRA needs to walk a very fine line. Focus on what is possible and meaningful, while not giving cause to any politicians who may be on the fence to side with the antis.

    Also, for those who missed it, C-SPAN has the full video on their website (its about 32 minutes long).

  6. #50
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    We gun owners were well represented by the NRA.
    I thought Mr. LaPierre handled himself extremely well.
    I fully expect the media to twist everything he said, we'll see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMB View Post
    If you think movies and games are to blame, you are just as irrational as the gun control people.

    He's just using their logic against them. ;)
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    I think he is a total jackass - with a really bad comb-over. he totally missed the point and suggested a solution that is even dumber than banning high capacity 'clips.' Putting armed guards in the schools -- only pirmary schools, only secondary schools, colleges and universities, in every building? Does he have the slightest idea how much traiing it would take and how many people it would take.
    How did this jerk get to the position of EVP?
    I think he totally missed that public opinion is SO much against guns that they are about to reinterprt the 2nd amendment and restict weapons to militia members.
    He has totally wasted the ideosyncracy credit that the NRA might have had. His call for more guns is just plain stupid at this time.
    He did mention the fact that the problem is not guns but mental health. But he didn't focus on it.
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    A couple of points need to be clarified and restated:

    1. "Kindergarten Killer" is not a game you can buy - it's over 10 years old and was never popular and for all intents and purposes it does not exist.

    2. The killer did apparently play war games like Call of Duty, but the problem here wasn't the games, it was the fact that his mother left handguns, a Bushmaster, and a shotgun laying around where he could get his hands on them.

    3. The mother frequently took her son, the killer, to shooting ranges for target practice. He allegedly went for practice to these ranges by himself, also.

    4. If you are the parent of a deeply disturbed, mentally ill person, such that when you have to leave him you need a sitter, and your instructions to the minder are "never let him out of your sight," then you are violating firearms law by allowing him to access and operate firearms.

    All of the blame for this tragedy falls on one person, and it's clear who that person is. The culprit wasn't "Hollywood," the President, gays, women, a "permissive" culture, lack of school prayer, liberals, media, or anything else except the person who allowed that disturbed kid access to firearms and ammunition, and failed to get him the mental health treatment he obviously needed.
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  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Isn't it ironic that so many "stars" who have made their millions in gun movies are so quick to claim to be Antis? I'd like to see them put their money where their mouths are and refuse to act in any movies with guns or violence. I bet their egos and wallets won't stop them.
    How about instead that the President, who never saw a tax he didn't like, tax the Hollywood stars, producers, directors, movie studios, video game companies, rappers, etc, etc, the 90% tax rate that the rich paid in the "good old days".
    Then maybe the government can afford to implement the NRA proposal to have armed guards in every school.
    To paraphrase the President, these people didn't get there on their own. They got there off of the blood of mass murder victims.

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMB View Post
    If you think movies and games are to blame, you are just as irrational as the gun control people.
    In a shooting, it is appropriate to mention the culture (movies and games). It is also appropriate to bring up firearm owners and guns. It is also appropriate to mention mental health.

    For example if a gunowner is careless or negligent with securing their firearms. If a parent does not supervise appropriate entertainment (best example is letting 7 year old play 1st person shooters with a mature rating for 8 hours every day). Somethings are for adults (like firearms and R rated movies), and somethings are for children and adults.

    It is not blaming the firearms, movies, video games, mental health, etc. It is a relevant topic that while not at fault, is a component that should be mentioned.

    The core issues are motive and means. So we have listed the means. What needs to happen now is the motive. The motive had to be attention, and in this case media attention. Far more relevant then gun control, how the media reports is far more concerning.

    That is why I think what the NRA had to say today was important, but they did not state one important point. If the culture (saturation of violent media and entertainment with irresponsible reporting and lacked supervison) then safeguarding schools with armed guards needs to be considered.

    I actually don't like the idea of arming teachers or having armed guards, but if the society / culture is going to be intolerant to the stewardship of teaching a moral norm, then the norm is exacerbating the violence, and armed guard may need to be the new norm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 357and40 View Post
    How do you really know? What is to say that one day they won't just snap?

    I have played violent Video Games since I was a kid (I am currently playing Borderlands 2 and it is VIOLENT!). I love slasher flicks, monster movies, action adventure films...
    I like to think I am a pretty well adjusted, civil person, but what happens when one day a neuron misfires and I start thinking I am a golden god who needs to cleanse the earth? You can not regulate the ability of an American to play the games they want or watch the LEGAL movies they want.
    Did you even bother to read what I posted...twice! Obviously not.

    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    How did HIPPA laws cause this tragedy? The boy did not buy a gun. He got it from his mother. Look at all of these other mass shootings....How many of them woould have HIPPA or lack of, been prevented? I have looked back to 1985 of all the mass shootings and hardly any of them would have been prevented by HIPPA.
    Show me where I said the HIPAA laws caused this tragedy. The HIPAA laws have contributed to the difficulty of doctors and Health care workers communicating with each other, the courts, police etc. We've become so concerned with patient confidentiality that there is no way for mentally ill people to get any meaningful help. Everyone says "something should be done, why was this allowed to happen". Well, I'm telling you right now, there's NO WAY to prevent it unless the laws are revised and the HIPAA rules are rewritten so that hospitals, doctors, police, courts etc can communicate without being sued.
    It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMB View Post
    If you think movies and games are to blame, you are just as irrational as the gun control people.
    So many people seem to be taking this ^^^^ point of view. I do not see it as the same thing. A gun is an inanimate object. Movies, video games, etc...can and do incite emotion, and feelings. Surely exposure to certain types of images, and storylines over a long period of time may have an impact on the viewer/gamer. Now, lets be clear, I am NOT saying video games and movies are the sole cause of these type of killings. However, I do think that the general decline of civility in our society is a larger issue that does play a part. Not everyone can tell the difference between right and wrong. Not everyone is influenced equally by the same stimulus. What one person sees as fantasy, someone with mental illness may view in a way that leads to inappropriate responses (i.e. violence). The "gun control people" are irrational because they blame a piece of metal for human actions. Discussing the influence of movies or video games on societal behaviors hardly makes a person irrational.
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    Senior Member Array Darrow75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo411 View Post
    How about instead that the President, who never saw a tax he didn't like, tax the Hollywood stars, producers, directors, movie studios, video game companies, rappers, etc, etc, the 90% tax rate that the rich paid in the "good old days".
    Then maybe the government can afford to implement the NRA proposal to have armed guards in every school.
    To paraphrase the President, these people didn't get there on their own. They got there off of the blood of mass murder victims.
    Um...what?

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcj View Post
    One of my favorite articles regarding why own a gun.....

    Why The Gun is Civilized By Marko Kloos

    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

    When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100 pound woman on equal footing with a 220 pound mugger, a 75 year old retiree on equal footing with a 19 year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a car load of drunken guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

    There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a (armed) mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed, either by choice or legislative fiat—it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

    Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV. There people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

    When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I’m looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation….. And that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.


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    This is an outstanding post. I appreciate not only your clarity but your ability to address the subject so succintly.

  16. #60
    Member Array usmcj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    We've become so concerned with patient confidentiality that there is no way for mentally ill people to get any meaningful help. Everyone says "something should be done, why was this allowed to happen". Well, I'm telling you right now, there's NO WAY to prevent it unless the laws are revised and the HIPAA rules are rewritten so that hospitals, doctors, police, courts etc can communicate without being sued.
    Not so much HIPPA, rather HR 2640. Unless the "person" has been ADJUDICATED to be mentally incompetent, pertinent info cannot be passed.....

    HR-2640 Section 3. (c)(1) IN GENERAL- No department or agency of the Federal Government may provide to the Attorney General any record of an adjudication related to the mental health of a person or any commitment of a person to a mental institution if--

    (A) the adjudication or commitment, respectively, has been set aside or expunged, or the person has otherwise been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring;

    (B) the person has been found by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority to no longer suffer from the mental health condition that was the basis of the adjudication or commitment, respectively, or has otherwise been found to be rehabilitated through any procedure available under law; or

    (C) the adjudication or commitment, respectively, is based solely on a medical finding of disability, without an opportunity for a hearing by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority, and the person has not been adjudicated as a mental defective consistent with section 922(g)(4) of title 18, United States Code, except that nothing in this section or any other provision of law shall prevent a Federal department or agency from providing to the Attorney General any record demonstrating that a person was adjudicated to be not guilty by reason of insanity, or based on lack of mental responsibility, or found incompetent to stand trial, in any criminal case or under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
    ...by the way.... many folks might interpret "meaningful help" as having the ability, or the insurance to pay for such help. Check your insurance coverage, and see if you're one of the lucky ones.
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