Without the PERCEPTION of Being Shot, A Person Does Not Fall or Stop

This is a discussion on Without the PERCEPTION of Being Shot, A Person Does Not Fall or Stop within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; [With the note that this is not true when the shot is in heart, brain or pelvis and it breaks (can't stand up then).] Though ...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 38
Like Tree23Likes

Thread: Without the PERCEPTION of Being Shot, A Person Does Not Fall or Stop

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    buffalo NY
    Posts
    952

    Without the PERCEPTION of Being Shot, A Person Does Not Fall or Stop

    [With the note that this is not true when the shot is in heart, brain or pelvis and it breaks (can't stand up then).]

    Though many may know of this, some may not: it is the seminal examination of "Stopping Power" by the FBI in 1987, but still very true and relevant.

    It does not claim that ballistic, caliber etc., have nothing to do with Stopping Power. But it finds Stopping Power is ultimately due to a psychological phenomenon of the person shot: without their perception of being shot they will not fall or stop. Indeed, as is known, people who have NOT been shot due to a miss, sometimes fall due to the mistaken perception they have been hit.

    "Psychological factors are probably the most important relative to achieving rapid incapacitation from a gunshot wound to the torso. Awareness of the injury (often delayed by the suppression of pain); fear of injury, death, blood, or pain; intimidation by the weapon or the act of being shot; preconceived notions of what people do when they are shot; or the simple desire to quit can all lead to rapid incapacitation even from minor wounds. However, psychological factors are also the primary cause of incapacitation failures...."

    I enclose the study, about 20 pages, for those who want some interesting and very surprising reading when they have time:

    fbi-hwfe.pdf
    Last edited by detective; July 17th, 2013 at 02:35 PM.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    7,354
    Link to the file won't work on my phone, but I'll check it tomorrow from home. Thanks.

    Yeah, I got tapatalk, too. So what?
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  4. #3
    VIP Member
    Array Jeanlouise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Almost Heaven
    Posts
    2,161
    I knew that because I have seen all 4 seasons of "The Walking Dead".
    It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

    http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown...eaves%20office

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member
    Array Xader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,551
    Which is why druggies are known to take several hits and keep coming.

    They just don't feel the pain.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array KyBill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Lexington, Ky
    Posts
    516
    I don't know, in "Saving Private Ryan" some of the top halves were separated from the bottom halves so maybe volume or caliber does make some difference. Then again that was only a movie.
    sparkykb likes this.

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,704
    All bears fall immediately upon being shot, even if they are shot in the toe.....but as fast as they fall they are up again....what bearing this has on this post escapes me....

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    3,292
    This again - I'm sorry, I just can't take this Patrick guy seriously.

    "A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years.31"

    Equal and opposite FORCES are applied between the bullet and gun, not energy. Energy is a force applied over a distance; because the bullet travels all the way down the barrel, while the gun recoils a fraction of that distance while the bullet is in the barrel, a much greater kinetic energy is imparted to the bullet than the gun, despite seeing the same force. A typical handgun round has roughly the kinetic energy of a bowling ball dropped from a fifth-story window; it fails to knock people down because of how the energy is spent, not because it lacks sufficient energy. The fact that his footnote refers one to Sir Isaac Newton elevates this from a simple college-freshman misunderstanding of physics to a form of unintentional comedic genius.

    "The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.32"

    This is arguably true, although to match a typical handgun round, the baseball would have to be traveling at about 250 miles per hour, which probably doesn't match the assumptions of a typical reader.

    There may well be some valuable information hidden in this document, but to me, all it proves is that anyone can be recognized by the federal government as an authority on a subject, as long as they use big words and write pompously.
    Jaeger and Jeanlouise like this.
    "Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of the way... The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way."

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    3,292
    Apologies for tearing into this one, it's been sticking in my craw for a good long time.
    "Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of the way... The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way."

  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array sealteam20001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    wasilla alaska
    Posts
    1,350
    Grandpa always told me '' if you cant say something nice, don't ''

  11. #10
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Maritimes Canada
    Posts
    1,140
    I think this requires a respected double-blind, placebo-controlled study.
    Our current plan for Universal Iron Lung coverage, just sayin'.
    Wisest. Retirement. Plan. Ever.
    Good thing the March of Dimes worked. How, why?

    Alternately, for those with a tool shed, ideas, or creative loved ones to tell..


  12. #11
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    7,354
    Quote Originally Posted by maxwell97 View Post
    This again - I'm sorry, I just can't take this Patrick guy seriously.

    "A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years.31"

    Equal and opposite FORCES are applied between the bullet and gun, not energy. Energy is a force applied over a distance; because the bullet travels all the way down the barrel, while the gun recoils a fraction of that distance while the bullet is in the barrel, a much greater kinetic energy is imparted to the bullet than the gun, despite seeing the same force. A typical handgun round has roughly the kinetic energy of a bowling ball dropped from a fifth-story window; it fails to knock people down because of how the energy is spent, not because it lacks sufficient energy. The fact that his footnote refers one to Sir Isaac Newton elevates this from a simple college-freshman misunderstanding of physics to a form of unintentional comedic genius.

    "The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.32"

    This is arguably true, although to match a typical handgun round, the baseball would have to be traveling at about 250 miles per hour, which probably doesn't match the assumptions of a typical reader.

    There may well be some valuable information hidden in this document, but to me, all it proves is that anyone can be recognized by the federal government as an authority on a subject, as long as they use big words and write pompously.
    So, you are saying that a bullet from a firearm will knock a man down? And, the movie depictions of people being blown back, through plate glass windows, 10-20 feet, after being shot; are more accurate than we believe?

    You are right about baseballs (off the bat), they only travel at about half that speed : ESPN Home Run Tracker :: 2013 Top Home Runs, Speed Off Bat - Full List


    Quote Originally Posted by maxwell97 View Post
    Apologies for tearing into this one, it's been sticking in my craw for a good long time.
    I understand the craw sticking... Certainly feels good to disparage a supposed "expert." But, I still believe him, people don't necessarily fall when hit, unless they overreact. There are exceptions... A Barret .50 comes to mind... cannon shot probably... and so on.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    St. Louis, MO "The Most Dangerous City in America"
    Posts
    2,071
    No, he's saying that the period over which the force is applied matters a great deal. A hand gun does not recoil with the full force of the bullet because the bullet is accelerating down the length of the barrel gaining that energy over time, and a person does not get knocked down when the bullet penetrates their body because the period of deceleration vis a vis the bone, meat, and organs that act to slow it over time. Catch a baseball in the pocket of a glove, and your hand bends back as the ball impacts, even if you miss the pocket and it hits your palm your hand is still moving backwards increasing the period of the force applied. Now stand there with your arm straight out stiff and try to catch the same baseball in your palm...hurts don't it? Its the same thing as flinching from a punch to the face and lengthening the period of the blow rather than standing stationary or moving into it. Most knockouts happen when the person doesn't roll with the punch.

    You want to see someone get knocked down by a bullet then reduce the period of deceleration and deliver the same force faster, like a rifle or magnum pistol round hitting a trauma plate on your chest. All that force is delivered under a MUCH shorter period, but it saves you only because the force is spread out by the plate. Granted, I have no direct personal experience, but I've seen people literally get knocked down when their vest saved them. It IS simple physics, the author is just leaving out the "period" of the force, which is definitely a mistake. Maybe it's not intentional, and maybe it is just to prove his preconceived conclusion.

    I don't think the statement invalidates the whole thing, but it is incorrect.
    digitalexplr likes this.
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    St. Louis, MO "The Most Dangerous City in America"
    Posts
    2,071
    I actually totally agree with the premise. A person realizing they are mortally wounded can easily me more of a show stopper than the wound itself.

    Unfortunately this doesn't support the current popular conventional wisdom, because it's harder not to notice when you get hit with large calibers, and I've heard stories of people walking around with bullets in them for years who never noticed getting shot in a non-vital area. The human body is an amazing thing, and so it the mind.
    detective likes this.
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    3,292
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeger View Post
    No, he's saying that the period over which the force is applied matters a great deal...

    I don't think the statement invalidates the whole thing, but it is incorrect.
    Thanks, that was indeed my point. The conclusions drawn by the paper may or may not be correct, but if they are, it's by accident, because the author doesn't really understand the subject and comes to at least some of his conclusions through flawed reasoning.

    What really annoys me about it is that an error that would have gotten an F on a class paper submitted by any sophomore science or engineering student is displayed so prominently and arrogantly by a supposed expert in a report used to make life-and-death decisions. I have to assume that at least hundreds of FBI agents, including very senior ones, have read this document, and either don't care to have it corrected or, more likely, just don't understand it either; and more importantly, that it obviously never saw a critical review by competent personnel before being taken as gospel. I can only hope that the culture of the FBI has improved since, because this kind of laxity when dealing with such a critical subject is inexcusable. Perhaps they were just in a hurry to get something on paper following the Miami disaster, but still, inexcusable.
    "Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of the way... The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way."

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    7,354
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeger View Post

    You want to see someone get knocked down by a bullet then reduce the period of deceleration and deliver the same force faster, like a rifle or magnum pistol round hitting a trauma plate on your chest. All that force is delivered under a MUCH shorter period, but it saves you only because the force is spread out by the plate. Granted, I have no direct personal experience, but I've seen people literally get knocked down when their vest saved them. It IS simple physics, the author is just leaving out the "period" of the force, which is definitely a mistake. Maybe it's not intentional, and maybe it is just to prove his preconceived conclusion.

    I don't think the statement invalidates the whole thing, but it is incorrect.
    The force is spread out by the plate, making the knockdown more likely... there is more resistance in the plate.. You are applying the force over a larger area, an area 100 of times bigger than the bullet diameter. The bullet itself loses much less of its energy going through tissue than it would hitting the plate.

    I contend that if you hit someone in the chest with a fist, they are less likely to be pushed back than if you hit them at the same speed with more area (same weight) with an open hand... (of course, with the open hand, you'll likely break your wrist).
    detective likes this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

if a person lends over the barrel to the heart of the shot gun do they fall forward

Click on a term to search for related topics.