A New Secret Program: This a DOOZY: "XKEYSCORE"

This is a discussion on A New Secret Program: This a DOOZY: "XKEYSCORE" within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; It's just my opinion, but I do not accept the government having secret, unknown, unmonitored (except by Secret Courts having no Adversarial presence to present ...

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    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    A New Secret Program: This a DOOZY: "XKEYSCORE"

    It's just my opinion, but I do not accept the government having secret, unknown, unmonitored (except by Secret Courts having no Adversarial presence to present evidence against what the gov, states as its reasons to seek more allowances to gather private information from citizens). Nope just Judges and a Gov prosecutor, The Secret Court is chosen by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court along with the advice of the present President, So the now Chief Justice has a bias toward conservatism and Obama's outlook in this area is quite conservative, they will make their choices and The Secret Courts conservative outlook give them bias towards what the government wants in anything brought to that court.

    I simply cannot see our Founder's countenancing this hidden decision making.

    Now with another revelation by Snowden, though I don't care if it was Sants Clause who leaked it: XKETSTROKE FYI

    New Snowden Leak: NSA Program Taps All You Do Online

    By Amanda Wills, Mashable
    updated 5:45 PM EDT, Wed July 31, 2013 | Filed under: Web

    New Snowden leak: NSA program taps all you do online - CNN.com
    Last edited by detective; August 1st, 2013 at 01:22 PM.

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    Senior Member Array Caertaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    I do not accept the government having secret, unknown, unmonitored
    Well, you (and I) can "not accept it" all we want and the people in power could care less. The people moving the levers of power are no different than a common street thug in that they only care about getting what they want. If they are successful, and they have a great track record, it was legal. That's my opinion for what its worth.
    "I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpations” – James Madison 1788

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    It's all about the "new" transparency.
    manolito and detective like this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    I heard an official from NSA on the radio yesterday saying this exact same thing (from the article):

    The Guardian reached out to the NSA for comment prior to publication. The agency defended the program, stressing that it was only used to legally obtain information about "legitimate foreign intelligence targets in response to requirements that our leaders need for information necessary to protect our nation and its interests."

    "XKeyscore is used as a part of NSA's lawful foreign signals intelligence collection system," the agency said in its response. "Allegations of widespread, unchecked analyst access to NSA collection data are simply not true. Access to XKeyscore, as well as all of NSA's analytic tools, is limited to only those personnel who require access for their assigned tasks ... .

    "In addition, there are multiple technical, manual and supervisory checks and balances within the system to prevent deliberate misuse from occurring. Every search by an NSA analyst is fully auditable, to ensure that they are proper and within the law. These types of programs allow us to collect the information that enables us to perform our missions successfully -- to defend the nation and to protect U.S. and allied troops abroad."


    ..............................

    I'm torn on this information gathering. I know our government has always gathered information on foreign countries. Since the computer age it's becoming easier and more widespread. We need information on our enemies and what they have planned in order to stop it before it can start. But in the wrong hands, it can be turned against American citizens...such as what happened with the IRS.

    IF I trusted the people running our country to do the right thing with the information, I would be more inclined to accept it.
    Maybe in 2016 we can get an administration that is worthy of our trust.

    So, until then...what's the answer? The NSA guy said yesterday that 32 major terror events have been stopped using this technology. Of course he can say anything he wants because how are we supposed to check.
    It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

    http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown...eaves%20office

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise;IF I trusted the people running our country to do the right thing with the information, I would be more inclined to accept it.
    Maybe in 2016 we can get an administration that is worthy of our trust.

    So, until then...what's the answer? The NSA guy said yesterday that 32 major terror events have been stopped using this technology. Of course he can say anything he wants [B
    because how are we supposed to check[/B].
    Therein lies the problem, no oversight and they can use the info for whatever they want.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    I heard an official from NSA on the radio yesterday saying this exact same thing (from the article):

    The Guardian reached out to the NSA for comment prior to publication. The agency defended the program, stressing that it was only used to legally obtain information about "legitimate foreign intelligence targets in response to requirements that our leaders need for information necessary to protect our nation and its interests."

    "XKeyscore is used as a part of NSA's lawful foreign signals intelligence collection system," the agency said in its response. "Allegations of widespread, unchecked analyst access to NSA collection data are simply not true. Access to XKeyscore, as well as all of NSA's analytic tools, is limited to only those personnel who require access for their assigned tasks ... .

    "In addition, there are multiple technical, manual and supervisory checks and balances within the system to prevent deliberate misuse from occurring. Every search by an NSA analyst is fully auditable, to ensure that they are proper and within the law. These types of programs allow us to collect the information that enables us to perform our missions successfully -- to defend the nation and to protect U.S. and allied troops abroad."


    ..............................

    I'm torn on this information gathering. I know our government has always gathered information on foreign countries. Since the computer age it's becoming easier and more widespread. We need information on our enemies and what they have planned in order to stop it before it can start. But in the wrong hands, it can be turned against American citizens...such as what happened with the IRS.

    IF I trusted the people running our country to do the right thing with the information, I would be more inclined to accept it.
    Maybe in 2016 we can get an administration that is worthy of our trust.

    So, until then...what's the answer? The NSA guy said yesterday that 32 major terror events have been stopped using this technology. Of course he can say anything he wants because how are we supposed to check.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    I heard an official from NSA on the radio yesterday saying this exact same thing (from the article):

    The Guardian reached out to the NSA for comment prior to publication. The agency defended the program, stressing that it was only used to legally obtain information about "legitimate foreign intelligence targets in response to requirements that our leaders need for information necessary to protect our nation and its interests."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    I heard an official from NSA on the radio yesterday saying this exact same thing (from the article):

    The Guardian reached out to the NSA for comment prior to publication. The agency defended the program, stressing that it was only used to legally obtain information about "legitimate foreign intelligence targets in response to requirements that our leaders need for information necessary to protect our nation and its interests."
    "XKeyscore is used as a part of NSA's lawful foreign signals intelligence collection system," the agency said in its response. "Allegations of widespread, unchecked analyst access to NSA collection data are simply not true. Access to XKeyscore, as well as all of NSA's analytic tools, is limited to only those personnel who require access for their assigned tasks ... .

    "In addition, there are multiple technical, manual and supervisory checks and balances within the system to prevent deliberate misuse from occurring. Every search by an NSA analyst is fully auditable, to ensure that they are proper and within the law. These types of programs allow us to collect the information that enables us to perform our missions successfully -- to defend the nation and to protect U.S. and allied troops abroad."


    ..............................

    I'm torn on this information gathering. I know our government has always gathered information on foreign countries. Since the computer age it's becoming easier and more widespread. We need information on our enemies and what they have planned in order to stop it before it can start. But in the wrong hands, it can be turned against American citizens...such as what happened with the IRS.

    IF I trusted the people running our country to do the right thing with the information, I would be more inclined to accept it.
    Maybe in 2016 we can get an administration that is worthy of our trust.

    So, until then...what's the answer? The NSA guy said yesterday that 32 major terror events have been stopped using this technology. Of course he can say anything he wants because how are we supposed to check.
    George III had 35 major incidents stopped by his troops being quartered in our homes.

    Here's why I don't like any of this:

    secret Gov.programs with no civilian oversight has no history of anything but excess. Secret Courts that are in the loop and not even allow the usual adversarial position to the Gov and courtroom must have is bogus, just the Judges - appointed by the same Gov they are supposed to monitor and the Prosecutor who speaks for the Government - that is the "Court"

    Vague statements of necessity like you are quoting but useless for any check of reliability since the specifics are "Secret" - i.e a claim of secret necessity by a secret Gov group overseen by a Secret Gov court. The is East Germany in '61 not the country our Founders created.

    I hate the Gov deciding it will enjoy the benefits of a suspension of the Fourth Amendment for a Secret Group a part of it. Guess who the Fourth A. was aimed at?

    I hate myself and all my neighbors coast to coast being treated as potential suspects in some as yet not committed crime. The Police in my area can't enter homes, strip-search and DNA Swab the entire population because one of us may murder someone some time. Yes, it would be easier for all Police-Type Authorities if this were a Dictatorship, but it isn't. The country wasn't founded to make the Gov.'s Police-ing and Intelligence Gathering an easy job - quite the reverse. If they want to hit a terrorist group go hit 'em, but present to a Civilian Court evidence of Probable Cause strong enough for a Court Order, just like the Sheriff of the smallest town in the country has to do, then go at THEM. IN short, you can't throw a net over 300 million citizens to catch a few criminals.

    I'm surprised some well-funded Citizen group has begun the legal ladder to the Supreme Court - that would be about as Constitutional a case as you could get.

    Lastly, I don't like this because I have that seminal-feeling and the phrase that goes with it in my genes because I'm American: "GET OUTTA MY HAIR !"

    "XKeyscore is used as a part of NSA's lawful foreign signals intelligence collection system," the agency said in its response. "Allegations of widespread, unchecked analyst access to NSA collection data are simply not true. Access to XKeyscore, as well as all of NSA's analytic tools, is limited to only those personnel who require access for their assigned tasks ... .

    "In addition, there are multiple technical, manual and supervisory checks and balances within the system to prevent deliberate misuse from occurring. Every search by an NSA analyst is fully auditable, to ensure that they are proper and within the law. These types of programs allow us to collect the information that enables us to perform our missions successfully -- to defend the nation and to protect U.S. and allied troops abroad."


    ..............................

    I'm torn on this information gathering. I know our government has always gathered information on foreign countries. Since the computer age it's becoming easier and more widespread. We need information on our enemies and what they have planned in order to stop it before it can start. But in the wrong hands, it can be turned against American citizens...such as what happened with the IRS.

    IF I trusted the people running our country to do the right thing with the information, I would be more inclined to accept it.
    Maybe in 2016 we can get an administration that is worthy of our trust.

    So, until then...what's the answer? The NSA guy said yesterday that 32 major terror events have been stopped using this technology. Of course he can say anything he wants because how are we supposed to check.
    George III said 35 incidents were prevented because British Troops were allowed to quarter in our homes.

    The NSA man you quote is giving you the easiest line in the world: "Trust me, it's necessary". When the attempt to verify that with specific details is made: it will be impossible because those details are "Secret". So: "Trust Me"

    I don't like any of this because I am not a fool, nor are my countrymen. Governments that allow no oversight move towards excess quickly and I know this.

    I dislike all this because I don't like myself and my neighbors coast to coast treated like suspects in as yet uncommitted crimes. The Police in my area can't enter homes, strip-search and DNA-Swab the inhabitants all over the whole area because one of us may turn into a criminal sometime.

    I don't like secret Gov. programs with no Civilian oversight - and Secret Courts being the over-sight whose Judges are appointed by the same Gov they are supposed to oversee while having no adversarial position allowed in them to challenge Gov claims. Just the Judges and a "Prosecutor" for the Gov.

    I don't like the Gov suspending for itself the Fourth Amendment. Guess who the Fourth A. was aimed at?

    I don't like a net over myself and 300 million citizens so some criminals might be caught. The Founders purpose in creating the country was not to make the Gov. have an easier time of it. The reverse. If they want to hit Terrorists go hit 'em - but get a civilian Court Order with evidence of Probable Cause just like the Sheriff of the smallest town in the U.S. has to do. If it was a Dictatorship all police and intelligence agencies would have a simpler job. But it is a Republic and that's the way it is.

    Lastly, I dislike this because I have that seminal-feeling and accompanying phrase in my genes that all Americans have:

    "GET OUTTA MY HAIR!

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    VIP Member Array OutWestSystems's Avatar
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    The problem is that any time a terrorist attack happens, the press says "Why didn't they see the signs?", "Why didn't they stop it?". As long as we have that attitude in this country, the government will be given more power.
    detective and WHEC724 like this.

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    I can't believe that people didn't believe in their hearts this was going on. Do you really think there is privacy on the net? hell I bet there are marketing research programs out there being used by corporations that are close to what the government does.

    The drones can look inside your house at night. The court says you have no right to privacy in public. Technology is good and evil all rolled up in one. The cell phone that saves a life on a 911 call can also put you in traffic court with date and time stamp proving you were driving and texting at the same time.

    I believe we will see the day we get monthly bills from the court on laws we broke during the month. Just found guilty by electronic surveilance.
    detective and Jeanlouise like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manolito View Post
    I can't believe that people didn't believe in their hearts this was going on. Do you really think there is privacy on the net? hell I bet there are marketing research programs out there being used by corporations that are close to what the government does.

    The drones can look inside your house at night. The court says you have no right to privacy in public. Technology is good and evil all rolled up in one. The cell phone that saves a life on a 911 call can also put you in traffic court with date and time stamp proving you were driving and texting at the same time.

    I believe we will see the day we get monthly bills from the court on laws we broke during the month. Just found guilty by electronic surveilance.
    They already do this in many states, and in the nearest city here... Speed cams on the interstate. Radar timed, picture taken of license plate... send the owner of the vehicle a speeding ticket.

    Under misdemeanor law, you don't have to face your accuser, you don't have to have intent. so just pay the fine.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    I heard an official from NSA on the radio yesterday saying this exact same thing (from the article):

    [I]The Guardian reached out to the NSA for comment prior to publication. The agency defended the program, stressing that it was only used to legally obtain information about "legitimate foreign intelligence targets in response to requirements that our leaders need for information necessary to protect our nation and its interests." ....
    Just an apology if you thought my post, fairly aggressive, was directed to you. Not at all. It was "directed" AT the NSA. But they just called and apologized and said this was all over for good. I'm happy they were so responsive. They also were nice enough to ask where I lived and when I was usually home alone.
    I knew they had a surprise party in mind - really nice! - so I told them. I can hardly wait...

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    Question

    Anyone know why some Citizens Groups, well-funded, would not have started up the legal ladder to a Supreme Court suit? It's about the most Constitutional of issues you could get...

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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    Just an apology if you thought my post, fairly aggressive, was directed to you. Not at all. It was "directed" AT the NSA. But they just called and apologized and said this was all over for good. I'm happy they were so responsive. They also were nice enough to ask where I lived and when I was usually home alone.
    I knew they had a surprise party in mind - really nice! - so I told them. I can hardly wait...
    That's great detective! I bet we're all invited too! I hope there's cake.
    It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

    http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown...eaves%20office

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    [QUOTE=Jeanlouise;2855814]
    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    Just an apology if you thought my post, fairly aggressive, was directed to you. Not at all. It was "directed" AT the NSA. But they just called and apologized and said this was all over for good. I'm happy they were so responsive. They also were nice enough to ask where I lived and when I was usually home alone.
    I knew they had a surprise party in mind - really nice! - so I told them. I can hardly wait...[/QUOTE]

    That's great detective! I bet we're all invited too! I hope there's cake.
    Of course you're all invited! Surveillance photos will be at 9:00 and cake at 10:00 pm

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    I'm mixed on this. I don't think most people care so much that the government is watching. They just don't want to be reminded of it. We're watched all the time. Go into a store, security cameras are tracking your every move. It's not just local. As quickly as the computer can upload it, it's transmitted to corporate headquarters or wherever in the world they want to send it. My city has traffic cameras all over the place. Maybe yours does also. My Kroger Plus Card, Walgreens Card, Books-A-Million Card, etc track everything I purchase and read and load it into some database somewhere. Google Earth has pictures of my house right down to the car in the driveway. Get on the computer at work and there's a little icon in the lower right that reminds you that corporate IT is watching what you're doing online. The postal service scans the outside of every single piece of mail that you receive. They've been doing it for years. Every app on your smart phone will gps track your location if you will allow it. Most of the time you have to specifically opt out. It tracks by default.

    So Snowden reminds us that the government is watching us and people act like they didn't have a clue that they were being watched before. This spying, either by business or government has been going on for years, and the majority of Americans just quietly accepted it and let it get larger and more invasive.

    Now, it's apparently gotten to this point....

    New York woman visited by police after researching pressure cookers online | World news | theguardian.com
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

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    I'd make an excuse declining because I have a Doctors Appointment but the NSA sent me an E-mail saying I didn't.
    Jeanlouise likes this.

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