Strange SYG case: Mo. slaying case may hinge on property rights

This is a discussion on Strange SYG case: Mo. slaying case may hinge on property rights within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Not much info but from the article Crocker does not appear to have been justified in shooting. Mo. slaying case may hinge on property rights ...

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Thread: Strange SYG case: Mo. slaying case may hinge on property rights

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    Strange SYG case: Mo. slaying case may hinge on property rights

    Not much info but from the article Crocker does not appear to have been justified in shooting.

    Mo. slaying case may hinge on property rights

    STEELVILLE, Mo. (AP) — James Crocker had grown weary of the partying canoeists and rafters who encroached on his neatly kept property along Missouri's Meramec River. When he caught a man about to relieve himself on a gravel bar by his yard last month, a nasty confrontation ensued that ended with one person dead and Crocker accused of killing him.

    The case against Crocker is the latest to put a spotlight on "castle doctrine" laws, which allow the use of deadly force to protect property. Missouri is among at least 30 states that have enacted the statutes, which supporters say protect gun rights but others insist promote vigilantism.

    Crocker's attorney, Michael Bert of St. Louis, said that Crocker was defending himself and his property.

    "Here's a man in fear for his life and fearful he might suffer bodily injury," Bert said.

    Prosecutors see it differently. Witnesses who testified at a hearing this month said Crocker was angry and raging, shooting into the crowd of people, narrowly missing two others before killing 48-year-old Paul Dart Jr. of Robertsville, Mo. Crocker has been charged with second degree murder.

    Even some supporters of the doctrine say the violence seemed avoidable.
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    VIP Member Array OutWestSystems's Avatar
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    From the sounds of it, it was easily avoided.

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    Distinguished Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    I agree but the reporting on this has been biased and misleading in the extreme, especially by the St. Louis Post Disgrace. There were in upwards of fifty people in the drunken float trip, and when he told them, rightly or wrongly, to get off his property. Bunch of them started throwing rocks at him, which was not reported, but I know one of the responding EMTs. He drew on them, and they continued to throw rocks and argue with him, as if they were all bulletproof.
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeger View Post
    There were in upwards of fifty people in the drunken float trip
    You don't go and confront fifty drunk people, that is just asking for something bad to happen.

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    Obama could have been that 48 year old...
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    Hard to know with what little and manipulated info we get from the media but, from what we were given, it does seem he ultimately caused his own problem. When you bring the action to the person you ultimately shoot, outside of your domicile, curtilage or vehicle, you're going to have a hard time claiming SYG. Sounds like a great example of something that was much better left to law enforcement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeger View Post

    the reporting on this has been biased and misleading in the extreme, especially by the St. Louis Post Disgrace.

    they continued to throw rocks and argue with him, as if they were all bulletproof.
    You mean all these trespassing drunken fools weren't bullet proof? Long long before I turned 48 I understood the law on trespassing. Having the owner of the land tell me or anyone to LEAVE NOW is plain enough. It's time to leave now. I think I was told that just once in my life. I left.

    As someone who owns property I take the side of the property owner. I have trouble with trespassers too. Young or old straight or drunk, they are nothing but punks. Miscreants, pukes, maggots...take your pick. The courts have made it clear time and time again being drunk and acting stupid is no defense against breaking the law.

    I for one hope the land owner beats the rap with his lawyers help. It's about freaking time trespassers regardless of who they are whether illegals or drunk river rafters learned to RESPECT PRIVATE PROPERTY and STAY OFF OR GET OFF when warned to do so.

    Going up against 50 drunks by yourself is less than sound thinking. Them throwing rocks at land owner to me is they threw the first punch. But from rocks to throwing lead is a real wide gap. Just the same I'd like the land owner found not guilty. Some of you may disagree with me. That's your right. The govt from the feds to the states to local and county walk all over private property owners. I'd like to see a shift from govt knows better to govt stay the freak OFF OUR LAND.
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    There is a few other factors at play here. In Missouri, you have every legal right to be on the river or sand bar as long as you stay within the high water line. And Missouri's SYG is only in place inside your home.

    I haven't read a newspaper article on this yet that tells the whole story, and this happened less than an hour from me. I'm thinking this will be drawn out for a long time.
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    I've read three or four different reports about this incident and all have stated that the ground he was "defending" was actually part of the river bed which this party of floaters had every right to use. It sure sounds to me like he was down by the river just waiting for someone to confront. The reports I read also stated that he told the responding officers "I just shot the one closest to me".

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    Distinguished Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    There is much blame to go around. Both sides acted very stupidly, but it blows my mind that when the pistol came out the floaters, who were unarmed, didn't just leave, but rather continued to argue, threaten, and actually throw rocks...

    The picture of the guy did it for me. If I was with my family in the middle of the river, and he came out of the woods and told me to get off his land, with out the pistol, my only response would be "Going!". I'll find another gravel bar to stop on.

    I've canoed that stretch of the Upper Meracec all my life. I don't go with the outfitters. We have our own boats and gear. I fully support use of our rivers for all, and I don't see this as a property rights issue. I think both sides were at fault, but only one ended up dead. I don't think Crocker is going to escape jail. I still can't believe they did not leave when he produced a pistol. Being full on drunk is the only answer that makes any kind of sense there.
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

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    The problem is with the people involved, not the law as written.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeger View Post
    There is much blame to go around. Both sides acted very stupidly, but it blows my mind that when the pistol came out the floaters, who were unarmed, didn't just leave, but rather continued to argue, threaten, and actually throw rocks...

    The picture of the guy did it for me. If I was with my family in the middle of the river, and he came out of the woods and told me to get off his land, with out the pistol, my only response would be "Going!". I'll find another gravel bar to stop on.

    I've canoed that stretch of the Upper Meracec all my life. I don't go with the outfitters. We have our own boats and gear. I fully support use of our rivers for all, and I don't see this as a property rights issue. I think both sides were at fault, but only one ended up dead. I don't think Crocker is going to escape jail. I still can't believe they did not leave when he produced a pistol. Being full on drunk is the only answer that makes any kind of sense there.

    Agreed. I've floated the Meramec twice myself and neither time did I go to debate property rights or river access. That meth-head deliverance boy comes out gun in hand, my happy ass is back on the water toot sweet!

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