Somebody Finally Said It

This is a discussion on Somebody Finally Said It within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; So, now we have an official study that states the US is an oligarchy. While I agree with the article, it will be interesting to ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 21
Like Tree25Likes

Thread: Somebody Finally Said It

  1. #1
    VIP Member
    Array ksholder's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    3,927

    Somebody Finally Said It

    So, now we have an official study that states the US is an oligarchy. While I agree with the article, it will be interesting to see what, if any, destabilizing publishing these studies will have. There is too much hubris in the oligarchs to see them change their ways willingly. Time will tell.

    The US is an oligarchy, study concludes - Telegraph
    Badey, msgt/ret, scottync and 1 others like this.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    3,052
    It's true.
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    St. Charles, Missouri
    Posts
    2,333
    Well, it isn't "one nation under nothing at all...." im just sayin...
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
    - Roy Batty

  5. #4
    Senior Member
    Array Bama61's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    N. Alabama
    Posts
    1,181
    Interesting article and from what I have seen in my life pretty much true. Of course I'm not sure many people will actually care but I wish they would.
    gatorbait51 and herpjunkie like this.
    NRA Member
    GOA Member
    US Army Vet

  6. #5
    VIP Member
    Array Jeanlouise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Almost Heaven
    Posts
    2,155
    It's obvious just by looking around that this report is pretty accurate. I used to be against term limits but in the past few years I've changed my mind. I think they would go a long way toward stopping this sort of thing. Our politicians become wealthy beyond imagination while in office, while only getting a salary of approx 175k. That's a nice salary but it doesn't boost you into the multimillionaire bracket. That money comes from special interest groups to influence the vote.

    It probably won't ever happen though.
    gatorbait51 and CWOUSCG like this.
    It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

    http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown...eaves%20office

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array CWOUSCG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Left Coast
    Posts
    922
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    It's obvious just by looking around that this report is pretty accurate. I used to be against term limits but in the past few years I've changed my mind. I think they would go a long way toward stopping this sort of thing. Our politicians become wealthy beyond imagination while in office, while only getting a salary of approx 175k. That's a nice salary but it doesn't boost you into the multimillionaire bracket. That money comes from special interest groups to influence the vote.

    It probably won't ever happen though.
    Robert Byrd got into an argument with another Senator, who's name I don't recall, about who started out poorer. Both of them were millionaires now and both had eaten from the public trough their entire working lives.
    Disgusting.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Maritimes Canada
    Posts
    1,133
    This is why I insist that Occupy Wallstreet had a point, but they couldn't put their finger on it or articulate it well. They just had an instinct 'something is wrong and it's quirking me off'.
    This is a natural consequence, but it's effing frustrating. It's the nature of the current economic system that wealth will concentrate. With the illusions that we live in a meritocracy, we naturally conflate 'wealth' with 'ability', which makes it seem intuitively obvious that the wealthy 'deserve' more eartime with the lawmakers.

    And, put money on the line, and people will always, always, always figure a way to work around watchdog regulations. Put effort on the line, people will work around the intent of regulations. This, plus the fact that rent-seeking pays so well, will always lead to problems. It starts with the fact that wealth concentrates (relative wealth, that is) and that we believe we live in a meritocracy.

    Honestly, the concerned citizen should look at other real world countries that have less of this problem, and figure out what helps.

    You can construct philosophical theories all you want, Karl Marx, but the question really is "what works in practice?"

    And remember, the 'garchs' are happy if you blame the 'ologists'. Countries with the fewest 'ologists' have the most egregious 'garchs'.
    Our current plan for Universal Iron Lung coverage, just sayin'.
    Wisest. Retirement. Plan. Ever.
    Good thing the March of Dimes worked. How, why?

    Alternately, for those with a tool shed, ideas, or creative loved ones to tell..


  9. #8
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Gulf Coast of Florida
    Posts
    9,362
    From the article:

    "The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence."

    "Researchers concluded that US government policies rarely align with the the preferences of the majority of Americans, but do favour special interests and lobbying oragnisations: "When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organised interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the US political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favour policy change, they generally do not get it."

    -----------------------------

    And they needed Ivy League Schools to conduct a study to come to this conclusion? It's been painfully obvious to anyone paying attention to politics in the US over the last 40+ years.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  10. #9
    Member Array Linny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    NV
    Posts
    341
    Very True
    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    So, now we have an official study that states the US is an oligarchy. While I agree with the article, it will be interesting to see what, if any, destabilizing publishing these studies will have. There is too much hubris in the oligarchs to see them change their ways willingly. Time will tell.

    The US is an oligarchy, study concludes - Telegraph
    USMC 2009-2013 0341 Pfc-Cpl.
    OEF II 2 Pumps
    Escaped Californian
    My Blog http://renogunblog.blogspot.com/

  11. #10
    VIP Member
    Array ksholder's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    3,927
    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    From the article:

    "The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence."

    "Researchers concluded that US government policies rarely align with the the preferences of the majority of Americans, but do favour special interests and lobbying oragnisations: "When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organised interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the US political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favour policy change, they generally do not get it."

    -----------------------------

    And they needed Ivy League Schools to conduct a study to come to this conclusion? It's been painfully obvious to anyone paying attention to politics in the US over the last 40+ years.
    No, we sure did not, but given their prestige, it will be interesting if their saying what they have said will have any impact on those who cannot or will not think for themselves.
    BugDude and pgrass101 like this.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Maritimes Canada
    Posts
    1,133
    Well, they used to publish regarding gini coefficients, but the common response was 'buckle down, try harder'.

    So, 'the government literally doesn't give a crap about what you want' should (hopefully) get some traction.
    Our current plan for Universal Iron Lung coverage, just sayin'.
    Wisest. Retirement. Plan. Ever.
    Good thing the March of Dimes worked. How, why?

    Alternately, for those with a tool shed, ideas, or creative loved ones to tell..


  13. #12
    VIP Member
    Array gatorbait51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Loozianna
    Posts
    2,589
    Anyone notice the time frame of the study ? Take a good look at the last line as well. Not denying we have an oligarcy, I do think the study might go back a little further to the two biggest expansions prior to 2009, the New Deal and the Great Society
    Jeanlouise and msgt/ret like this.
    EN MI VIDA AL MAL NO TEMERÉ, POR QUE EN MI CORAZÓN Y MIS DOS .38 SUPER COLT.

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Maritimes Canada
    Posts
    1,133
    between the years of 1981 and 2002?
    Our current plan for Universal Iron Lung coverage, just sayin'.
    Wisest. Retirement. Plan. Ever.
    Good thing the March of Dimes worked. How, why?

    Alternately, for those with a tool shed, ideas, or creative loved ones to tell..


  15. #14
    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    St. Louis, MO "The Most Dangerous City in America"
    Posts
    2,063
    "tend to tilt towards the wishes of corporations and business and professional associations."
    I don't disagree, but the above IS our economy. Attacking business, ala Occupy, is targeting the symptom, not the problem. The problem is that government has so much power it not only matters, it is central to even being allowed to do business in the first place. Businesses HAVE to lobby and try to crony up to politicians if they want to stay in business, operate, and pay their employees. This is why the third world stays the third world even though some of those countries have far more exploitable natural resources than we do. When the government is all powerful and picks the winners and losers regardless of markets what else could you get but crony capitalism and an uneven playing field? The biggest corporations can hire an army of lawyers, and army of lobbyists, and have huge compliance departments to sift through thousands of pages of regulations. Passing more regulations and giving government more power is the solution? No, it's the problem. This is all done in the name of "fairness", and it's the exact opposite of the same rules for everyone, which by definition makes it unfair. Occupy was full of ignorance and youthful idealism. They don't even understand how the system works, because they're attacking the people trying to survive and thrive in it rather than the system itself, which has little to do with American business and everything to do with government.

    Again, the 16th Amendment is what has ruined everything. If government were dependent on the economy and economic output it would end all this. This is what Benjamin Franklin meant by, "The business of America is business". He meant that our system creates a level playing field and opportunity for all, and that success is what allows us to be wealthy and have a government that is effective and functions. Cronyism would simply be political graft (and we'd call it Cronyism again) and illegal/unfair advantage of someone not playing by simple rules that everyone has to follow, and American business would again all be about who builds a better mousetrap, not who can influence the rule making. That is what made us a global superpower, not government regulations and cronyism. You wouldn't have to pit business against non-business, because business and its success would supply the public treasury instead of stealing it from individuals. Even someone who wanted to give every dime to the poor wouldn't eat their seed corn or try to hurt business or give certain business more say for advantage. It would be in the best interests of everyone to see that the most people possible succeeded under their own power and without handouts or special help from government. Right now they've placed business in-between the people and government on purpose for one reason, power. You want to fix this, make government dependent on the revenue from trade, not individuals.

    The 17th Amendment neutered the states power, and eliminated the main check against Federal expansion at the expense of the people. You want the states to matter again, let the state legislatures elect Senators. The House isn't the problem. That does reflect the will of the people. The Senate was supposed to be a check on the democracy of the House and give the States a voice. Now it isn't, and it doesn't.

    The 18th was repealed because it was just as ridiculous and unworkable as the first two.

    Most modern problems and dysfunctions can be traced to the Progressive Amendments, including the unchecked growth and power of the Federal Government. This isn't the American system of checks and balances, and it hasn't been for 100 years, but the ramifications are just beginning to be fully felt, because history and probity have prevented what they have been long capable of doing. Now we don't know our history and probity is out the window, and that is why it is going down like this.

    We repealed prohibition, but we should have repealed the rest of their nonsense that restricted liberty and expanded federal power. Everything else you're discussing is a symptom.
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

  16. #15
    Senior Moderator
    Array pgrass101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    13,486
    Well part of the problem is that the moneyed interests and their pet politicians have tilted the field in their favor.

    Look at all of the regulations there are to start a small business, I think that most of them are there just to weed out the little guy and to keep us dependent on the government and the few big corporations and rich individuals who control our government
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •