Retiree confronts undercover cops and is shot

Retiree confronts undercover cops and is shot

This is a discussion on Retiree confronts undercover cops and is shot within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/l...?storyid=74573 JACKSONVILLE, FL -- Jacksonville Narcotics officers shot and killed a man during an undercover operation on the Southside. The shooting happened in the 2300 ...

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Thread: Retiree confronts undercover cops and is shot

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Retiree confronts undercover cops and is shot

    http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/l...?storyid=74573

    JACKSONVILLE, FL -- Jacksonville Narcotics officers shot and killed a man during an undercover operation on the Southside.

    The shooting happened in the 2300 block of Westmont Street, just off Philips Highway Saturday night.

    "An individual approached from between two houses brandishing a handgun. The officers gave several commands to drop the gun, he did not, so they exchanged gunfire," says Chief Dwain Senterfitt.

    Witnesses told First Coast News it appeared the man mistook the officers for drug dealers and was trying to scare them away.

    "The man came out three times and said move out of my yard. So after the third time he came out with a 357 and started shooting at the individuals," said a witness who did not want to be identified.

    Police say officers shot the man several times and there were bullets found in a tree the officers had used as cover.

    The man died at Shands Jacksonville.

    A man who says he is the victim's nephew tells First Coast News that the victim was weeks from turning 81 years old. He says his uncle was a respected man in the neighborhood that everyone called, 'Pops.'

    "He [got] his enjoyment from sitting under a tree and watching his collard greens and cabbages grow," said nephew Gary Evans.

    "The only time anybody would hear anything out of my uncle is if they stopped in front of his house and tried to do whatever deals they wanted to do," Evans added.

    Officers John Maynard and James Narcisse have been placed on administrative leave, which is standard procedure in police shootings.

    The narcotics officers had been working in the neighborhood in response to complaints by residents about the drug activity.

    The undercover investigation netted five arrests before the shooting.

    The deadly shooting is the second by JSO in a week.

    Last weekend narcotics officers shot and killed 18-year-old Doug Woods at the Sable Palms Apartments on Emerson, which is blocks from the scene of the latest shooting.

    Investigators said Woods tried to rob an undercover officer with a gun.

    Witnesses claim Woods only had a cell phone in his hand.


    http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/l...?storyid=74585

    JACKSONVILLE, FL -- The Jacksonville Sheriff's Office says the victim of a police shooting Saturday night on the Southside is 81-year-old Isaac Singletary.

    Police say the shooting happened after they ordered Singletary to drop his weapon, and they had no choice but to shoot Singletary.

    "If you've got an individual that's got a firearm, then you have to do what you have to do based on your training to protect your life or protect the lives of others," said the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office Director of Homeland Security and Investigations, Micheal Edwards.

    Edwards says the Undercover Narcotics Unit was using the area near Singletary's yard to bust drug operations in the neighborhood. He says words were exchanged between the undercover officers and Singletary.

    What exactly was said is under investigation. Edwards says JSO is also investigating whether police identified themselves to Singletary before the shooting.

    "The policy is that if you have the opportunity to identify yourself, we will identify ourselves," said Edwards.

    Some who say they saw the shooting have a very different story. Neighbors there refer to Singletary as 'Pops.'

    "That's the first thing he did. He came outside and asked, 'Will you please get off my property? You have no business on my property. You know you're wrong, get off my property.' The next thing you know, he said, 'He's got a gun.' So he ran around the tree and he shot Pops. Pops fell right here. Pops fired some shots, but all his shots hit the tree because the dude was behind the tree. That's exactly how it went," said Price Benton III, a neighbor.

    Reporter: "Do you think he knew they were officers?"

    "How? They didn't have nothing on that said, POLICE. After the man told them to get out of his yard, they didn't say, 'We're holding a police investigation out here, or we're officers.' They didn't say none of that," said Shafonda Boyeoten, a neighbor.

    Boyeoten says everyone in their neighborhood knows not to go into Singletary's yard. She says even the drug dealers know it and respect it.

    "He's real mean. He don't let nobody in his yard. You know, he don't play. So we respect him for that because he's an elderly man," said Boyeoten.

    Police say they are investigating the shooting, and the two officers involved in the shooting are on standard paid administrative leave.

    Police say the undercover officers did make 5 arrests for illegal drug activity in the neighborhood before the shooting.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    A good warning to the wise: you may never know the full score of what's going down, unless you are the direct target and have seen everything from the start. Otherwise, you're likely to miss what may well be crucial details. If this news report is correct, then this man's assumptions got him killed. Tragic. Yet another example of how a person that was not being directly and violently threatened with loss of life could have chosen to call police from inside his home, instead. Might well have resulted in a better outcome.

    Ayoob: "Justified use of lethal force requires that the innocent be in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm."

    Ain't it the truth.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Member Array foreveryoung001's Avatar
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    Seems like it would have been a good time to use the old, "I've called the police and I have a gun! Do not try to get inside of my house or I will shoot!"

    I understand wanting to keep scum off of your property, but to go out brandishing??????? Even if they weren't LEO's, something like that could (and in this case did) get you killed. ccw9mm, I like the quote you put up from Ayoob. If you're going to use a firearm for personal protection, you have to keep that in mind.
    When the messenger arrives and says 'Don't shoot the messenger,' it's a good idea to be prepared to shoot the messenger, just in case.

  4. #4
    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    [url]

    Boyeoten says everyone in their neighborhood knows not to go into Singletary's yard. She says even the drug dealers know it and respect it.

    Sounds like this is a nobody wins situation, A call to the police should have been the better thing to do. Can LEO's run a drug sting on private property w/o getting permision first.

    Sounds like a lot of questions are left to be answered, it will be interesting to see what happens with this one.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array BruceGibson's Avatar
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    Bad deal all around.

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    So let me get this straight... the LEO's were not drug dealers, they were working plain clothes or undercover. The retiree was killed because he would not drop his gun after me confronted the LEO's? Did I get it right? You titles are very confusing paramedic.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    This sucks. :(

    Mr. Singletary made a couple of tactical errors though...
    1) Call the cops/911 first if any suspicion of illegal activity is on going outside or around your home.
    2) Don't go to the source of trouble...stay inside your fort/home and observe while awaiting backup e.g. 911.
    3) He'd already gone out once to tell them to leave, and alerted them to his presence giving up the element of surprise.
    4) Two behind hard cover against one with none are long odds to beat.
    5) Shotgun FTW.

    This deal is horrible for all parties as police are allowed to encroach on ones private property if necessary toward doing of their job as they did here. Being undercover/plainclothed they couldn't exactly yell out to dude amongst the watching neighbors; "It's okay sir, we are law enforcement officers here to protect & serve".

    Agreed, the title of the thread is confusing relative to the story as reported.

    - Janq

    "A good warning to the wise: you may never know the full score of what's going down, unless you are the direct target and have seen everything from the start. Otherwise, you're likely to miss what may well be crucial details." - CCW9MM
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    So let me get this straight... the LEO's were not drug dealers, they were working plain clothes or undercover. The retiree was killed because he would not drop his gun after me confronted the LEO's? Did I get it right? You titles are very confusing paramedic.

    Another title i will edit just for as you say above i was reading this as you posted

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array Steve48's Avatar
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    Sounds a little "fishy" to me if that's what happened. Steve48

  10. #10
    Member Array Texas Yankee's Avatar
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    Several problems here. First, my guess is that in that neighborhood if Pops calls 911 about people on his property, if the police show up, it is an hour plus. So calling the police is not really that great an option. Second, why do the LEOs stay on his property after he asked them to get off. Wasn't there anywhere else where they could do their business. Apparently drug traffickers had figured out not to use Pops' property, why couldn't the LEOs. Finally, did the LEOs identify themselves as police officers before shooting. Being undercover doesn't give an LEO the right to shoot someone without giving notice, particularly where you are trespassing on his property, and in this case, that is what they were doing.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    were the officers on his property? it DOES say they were behind a tree.... i dunno if they were or werent, but if they were...

    without notifying/asking him?

    you can't do that. notwithstanding this incident, you're setting up drug deals on someones property, and placing them in harms way, should shots be fired if, like its never been heard of, that drug deal involves GUNS?!

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed TY likely the cops in his area are like those in many other communities toward response time, slow.
    So he stays on the phone with 911 refusing to hang up providing play by play untill they do show up. Additionally state that he is in immediate fear of them attempting to invade his own home a.nd/or that of a neighbor. That should buy him five minutes or so.

    They were trepassing but doing so in an official capacity which I beleive nullifies trespass. I don't beleive that the UCs have to identify themselves to anyone even if asked muchless do so prior to shooting someone if they themselves feel that they are in immediate danger as they were when Mr. Singletary approached them a second time.

    The story does not read like they were doing a dealon his property.
    It seems they were just standing there possibly observing the environment in general if not activity in specific.
    I wonder where this tree was in relation to his yard. In some areas by law trees maybe owned by the town/city and then there are legal right of way as well that at any time can be used by the city/town for varying purposes from checking of meters, sewage access, and fire dept. use to whatever. I have trees at the perimeter of my own yard and two of them are owned by the town even as one is adjacent to my yard space and the other roughly 7' therein.

    Again this sucks all the way around.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #13
    Member Array Texas Yankee's Avatar
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    Since when do LEOs have the right to come on my property and not at least identify themselves? I agree that coming on the property in an official capacity nullifies trespass, but if I challenge them and they refuse to identify themselves, they just put themselves in trouble of one sort or another.

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    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Yankee
    ...if the police show up, it is an hour plus. So calling the police is not really that great an option.
    I have to disagree. They were on his property. That's all. They were presenting no threat to him at all. He could have stayed in the house and waited all day long for the police to come. Calling the police was the BEST option, and is what he SHOULD have done!

    This is a tragedy all around, and I think the police made some mistakes here, also. But the plain fact of the matter is that it was "Pops" who initiated the conflict, and raised it to the lethal level, thereby forcing the officers to defend themselves.

    The officers probably need some mild administrative discipline, and perhaps training in how to better handle this type of situation. But once he came out with his gun and started waving it at them, he sealed his own fate--they had no choice but to respond the way they did.

  15. #15
    Member Array Cocolo's Avatar
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    I am a noob, but I live here in Jax. There has been numerous complaints because the police will not show up in an appropiate amount of time. I have called the cops in the past and they actually never showed up!!! And this happened 3 times. The last time I called the Sheriff Office and complained, actually explained I had a TRG42 and was able to hit down to 1200 yards. Only then the police showed up to confront me, not the punk who threatened to shoot my son. Last one, a guy held up a kidnapper for around 30 minutes before the police showed up, so that will tell you. One reason to actually get firearms trained and CCW.

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