"Montana Meth" This is WAR!

This is a discussion on "Montana Meth" This is WAR! within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I don't think any of the legalization crowd thinks it will fix problems with heavy drug use. It's that it will stop wasting tax money ...

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Thread: "Montana Meth" This is WAR!

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    I don't think any of the legalization crowd thinks it will fix problems with heavy drug use. It's that it will stop wasting tax money on a useless War against them that isn't working.

    For example, I see it as being a choice with 2 options. In Option A, people still ruin their lives (as people will always do) and it's illegal so we spend 80+ billion a year to fight it and fail.

    In Option B, people still ruin their lives, but we don't spend 80+ billion a year trying to stop them from doing so. Or for you big government folks, we spend 80 billion a year trying to help them (not imo a good idea, but better than a failed war)

    I see the second option as a better choice. This is another argument like guns that pulls in a lot of emotional arguments that aren't based on facts though, so it's hard to talk about it.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

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  3. #32
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    Sammy,

    I agree that the war on drugs is unwinnable, and that the way it is being conducted needs to be changed. I find it appalling that you can do more time for possesion of marjununa than for rape or that the small time dealers and users seem to be the main targets of the war.

    I do believe that we need to re think our nations drug policies and ask ourseleves what we really are trying to accomplish
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  4. #33
    Member Array sailormnop's Avatar
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    The drug war can't win. We all know this. Since it is so obvious, surely our elected officials know this also. The only explanation is that it is yet another method of extending the power of the government into every area of our lives.

    It gives the govt tools to oppress - tools that they should not possess. The violations of natural rights that occur every day in the name of the drug war should have the entire country screaming. But somehow Americans have come to accept the nanny State.
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  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    I am a criminal defense lawyer. It is what I do, and I have deatl with users of meth more and more often over the last ten years.

    Meth is a scourge on civilization.

    I am not a Bible-thumping moralist (I'm pretty far from it). I am not an apologist for drug dealers or users, either. I can only relate my experiences in dealing with those who have used the drug.

    And they are all negative. VERY negative.

    Some may charge hysteria scare-mongering with all the epidemic talk. They can make such charges all they like. Meth's evil (yes, evil) cannot be underestimated. Its destructive potential is limited only by the human population.

    It controls and ruins the lives of those who use it, and the lives of those who love those who use it.

    It's a little different from some drugs in that it is easily made (partially reducing the numbers of huge manufacturing/distributing rings- unlike the Medellin cocaine cartel of yesteryear). Many who use it also make it.

    It's cheap.

    I think it's probably more addictive than heroin.

    Once you use it, you don't give a damn about anything else in the world, at all, ever. Not for the rest of your unnaturally-shortened, paranoid, hideous life. Not your job, not your kids, nothing. Just getting more meth.

    I don't know the answers, either. The prisons are full. The drug-addiction treatment centers are full. Neither work.

    Maybe more education about it. Maybe more recreational alternatives in poor, rural areas. I don't know.

    Maybe its spread will slow, and eventually maybe it'll play itself out. We can only hope.

    It is Satan incarnate.

    Stay away. And be very, very afraid.
    "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."


    Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    Once you use it, you don't give a damn about anything else in the world, at all, ever. Not for the rest of your unnaturally-shortened, paranoid, hideous life. Not your job, not your kids, nothing. Just getting more meth.
    "The Chemicaly fueled attacker", they are the reason why I bought a .45, and extra mags.

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array BIG E's Avatar
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    Thanks Randy,

    Great insight from someone that knows first hand.

    I don't have the answers, but I would like to think that one answer is right here. We are talking about it instead of hiding it.

    It used to be enough to tell your kids "don't do drugs". Drugs were a little more benign then. I'm not saying that they weren't terrible, just that trying something once didn't hook you. Now, once can and often is enough.

    I think we need to let our kids see first hand what can happen and does happen to kids just like them everyday. Like the scared straight programs that toured kids through the jails. Documentaries like MM will do that and hopefully scare the kids to death.

    I think they need first hand (or as close as it gets) experience so they can draw conclusions for themselves. I remember the being young and the belief that I was invincible. I also remember thinking that my parents don't know jack or "they don't understand".

    Meth heads that have been using for awhile often have bad skin and look almost dead. That if anything will be enough for my 12 year old daughters. I can hear it now..."her face looks gross".

    Kids are smart for the most part. Give them the real info and they will hopefully make better decisions.
    Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!

    -- Theodore Roosevelt --

  8. #37
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    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=9193186

    To bring this up again NPR is running a series on the drug war and just did a episode on meth.

    Thought some might find the link interesting
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array cmidkiff's Avatar
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    Meth is a plague? An epidemic? Meth is 'evil'? We need more 'Antihistamine control' laws? I know... it's 'for the kids' too, right?

    Seems I've heard all these arguments before, applied to other things that people didn't want other people to have.

    Attempting to ban a 'thing' that people want, especially one that is easy to make, is a recipe for failure. Did we learn nothing from the failed 'grand experiment' of prohibition? How many times have I read on these boards that if all guns were destroyed, criminals would simply use another tool. The same logic applies. If we managed, against all probability, to eliminate meth, people who want to sell or use drugs would simply switch to another one. Who knows, the next big craze in street drugs might be even worse!

    On the off chance that you've forgotten... Criminals typically ignore laws. Making more of them doesn't do any good. Education is the _only_ answer to the problem of drug use. It's not a perfect solution, but it's the only workable one we have.
    Liberty is an inherently offensive lifestyle. Living in a free society guarantees that each one of us will see our most cherished principles and beliefs questioned and in some cases mocked. It's worth it.

  10. #39
    Senior Member Array David III's Avatar
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    Interesting and scary thread.
    Just a couple comments. Back in the 1980s my wife and I lived outside of Philadelphia. Meth seemed to be all over the place (though I was in a motorcycle club which very likely gave me a greater exposure at that time). About 1/4 of the people we knew at that time were on Meth.
    So, we move to Missouri about 1988 and nobody here had heard of Meth that we met. We thought "just wait" and here it came.
    How is this all solved? I don't know. I do know that every single person we knew in PA that was involved with Meth is now dead.
    Every one of them.
    My wife and I sit here in Missouri, look around and see all the people using Meth now and think in a few years, they won't be here at all. And I think (as a good thing) some of the kids we know here are really noticing how "Dennis" seemed to lose 75 pounds and his teeth while his face started rotting all in a couple months.
    I sure wish somebody had an answer because some of the people I knew who died were really good people once.

  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    David III:

    You and I are of one mind on meth, and that mind is based on the (unpleasant) experience of observing people who use meth.

    They die.

    Young, fast and hard. Very hard.
    "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."


    Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    IMHO - the govenment labs should mass produce drugs and give them away for free in unlimited quanitites to whoever wants them, as long as they are willing to live in restricted areas and remain there. Like an escape from NY scenario or penal colony. Everyone would be wlecome and could have all the drugs they want. If people are caught using outside, you put them in for the free all you can get drug party.

    This approach would:

    1. Take the money out of dealing, smuggling and production.

    2. Fleece society of the addicts, who would die off pretty quickly.

    3. Save billions of tax dollars.

    4. Dramatically reduce crime. (robberies for drug money, gang turf wars, etc.)

    It would be harsh, but not as harsh as what the Chinese did with their opium addicts. At least they would die happy...sort of.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  13. #42
    Member Array sailormnop's Avatar
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    In 1914, when narcotics were initially declared controlled substances, 1.3% of the population was addicted to drugs. In 1974, when the fed govt declared war on drugs, 1.3% of the population was addicted to drugs. Today, guess what? Not only is 1.3% of the population addicted to drugs, but hundreds of thousands of Americans are in prison for victimless crimes, something like 6% of black males are in prison for all kinds of crimes related to drug trafficking amd thousands and thousands of people have been killed. We spend billions of dollars. The prisons are full and people who commit real crimes are on the street. I'm sure there are many more negative unintended consequences but I think this is enough to make the point.

    Let people make their own decisions. They will prosper or fail because of them. The govt can't change that. Let the consequences happen. People will learn.
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  14. #43
    Member Array sailormnop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtD View Post
    IMHO - the govenment labs should mass produce drugs and give them away for free in unlimited quanitites to whoever wants them, as long as they are willing to live in restricted areas and remain there. Like an escape from NY scenario or penal colony. Everyone would be wlecome and could have all the drugs they want. If people are caught using outside, you put them in for the free all you can get drug party.

    This approach would:

    1. Take the money out of dealing, smuggling and production.

    2. Fleece society of the addicts, who would die off pretty quickly.

    3. Save billions of tax dollars.

    4. Dramatically reduce crime. (robberies for drug money, gang turf wars, etc.)

    It would be harsh, but not as harsh as what the Chinese did with their opium addicts. At least they would die happy...sort of.

    Most drug users live under the misconception that they are still mostly OK. They still have jobs and families, etc. Even if you tried to segregate the drug users, they wouldn't cooperate. (Except the really bad crackheads and methheads who don't care anymore) The illegal drug trade would continue.

    Just get the govt out of the entire drug picture. There are no positive results from the war on drugs.
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  15. #44
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailormnop View Post
    There are no positive results from the war on drugs.
    Well, it certainly created a lot of jobs with the billions in pork it gets annually. Oh wait, that's negative too.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array maclean3's Avatar
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    Something interesting I noticed a few days ago. I went by Walgreen's for some Sudafed and the pharmacist asked for my license. I figured he was just logging it in the book but he started keying the info into the register/computer. Seems things are finally getting streamlined where the hard copy books are being replaced by a real time network.

    We've got a huge problem here in Middle TN considering all the rural outlying areas. The only thing that bothers me about the war on meth is that Sudafed's the only thing that actually WORKS on my allergies/hayfever and the TN Valley is horrendous for pollen and pollutants. I don't mind getting it through the pharmacist but I can easily see an outright ban on ephedrine in the not too distant future.
    Jack

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