Gun forums

Gun forums

This is a discussion on Gun forums within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Let's talk about what's wrong with em. I've been on too many gun forums where your freedom of speech rights are often violated by the ...

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  1. #1
    Ex Member Array one eyed fatman's Avatar
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    Gun forums

    Let's talk about what's wrong with em.

    I've been on too many gun forums where your freedom of speech rights are often violated by the mods. I got myself intentionally kicked off one gun forum cause they didn't like me saying the word turd. I just got a warning here cause I said the word stupid. The mod thought I had called a member stupid. I didn't. I just said he would be stupid if he didn't get a mechanical problem fixed on his car. I was also B rated (bad boy) here because of my sig. It follows.

    http://home.houston.rr.com/gunpics/images/one%20eye.wav

    But once I explained that if you can say it on TV in front of millions of children then it should be OK to say on an adult gun forum things seemed to mellow out. I did remove my sig, to please...

    I just find it rather amazing that gun forums can be the very first ones to violate a persons rights while the very reason these sites are created is to protect everyones rights.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    The following is only my opinion and should be taken as such, not as an assault on you or your opinion. I also applaud the manner in which you thoughtfully phrased your post.

    I have seen other forums where profanity and personal insults are the norm. I don't belong to them, I belong to this one where people are civil and respectful.

    You have freedom of speech for sure, and you can post whatever you want on your forum, but the mods who run this one should continue to keep it clean and respectful IMHO.

    We are here to share knowledge and learn from one another. That is not facilitated by crude language or poorly thought out posts which can be construed as personal attacks or insults.

    BTW, I like your signature line and your screen name. They show True Grit.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by one eyed fatman View Post
    Let's talk about what's wrong with em.

    I've been on too many gun forums where your freedom of speech rights are often violated by the mods. I got myself intentionally kicked off one gun forum cause they didn't like me saying the word turd. I just got a warning here cause I said the word stupid. The mod thought I had called a member stupid. I didn't. I just said he would be stupid if he didn't get a mechanical problem fixed on his car. I was also B rated (bad boy) here because of my sig. It follows.

    http://home.houston.rr.com/gunpics/images/one%20eye.wav

    But once I explained that if you can say it on TV in front of millions of children then it should be OK to say on an adult gun forum things seemed to mellow out. I did remove my sig, to please...

    I just find it rather amazing that gun forums can be the very first ones to violate a persons rights while the very reason these sites are created is to protect everyones rights.
    You have made an accusation, now let's see if you can back it up with even one shred of evidence.

    Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    There is the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. Find in there where it says that an individual, group, or organization cannot limit your speech. The statement is clear and unambiguous. "Congress shall make no law respecting . . . abridging the freedom of speech." I don't recall Congress having anything to do with this board. If you can show otherwise please do.

    NOW, just so that there is ABSOLUTELY NO MISUNDERSTANDING. The following is taken directly from the page entitled "Forum Rules".
    A note on FREE SPEECH:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    The First Amendment is greatly respected here, as are all other Amendments that the Second Amendment defends. However, DefensiveCarry.com is a private venture and requests that members adhere to all forum policies. It is a contract agreed to by all who become members of this forum. Those who err cannot complain about censorship, or a perceived loss of first amendment rights. If you do not like the rules or feel you cannot follow them, seek out a new venue to frequent, or start your own.

    If you feel you can abide by these rules, we hope that you join us on DefensiveCarry.com. We invite you to share your expertise and enjoy the camaraderie. "Share what you know, learn what you don't."
    Sometimes I explain our position by invoking what is called the Gold Rule (not to be confused with the Golden Rule). The Gold Rule says: He who has the gold makes the rules. Bumper owns this forum and even though some of us have invested money and time it still belongs to him. So he sets the rules. Anytime you decide that you don't like the rules you have two choices: 1) Grow up and live with it or 2) Start your own board. There is no number 3 that says you can post anything you want to including deprecating remarks about moderators.

    You now get to make a choice between those two options and express the answer publicly just like you expressed the deprecating remarks. And remember as someones Sig here says: Not choosing is a choice.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array Zundfolge's Avatar
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    Ya know, with software forums you can usually download new software from the forum ... too bad you can't do that with gun forums :D

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array Sig229's Avatar
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    Well, I dont know if this will help or not.

    But I was the member the fat man said "would be stupid if...."
    And honestly, I didn't take any offense to it.
    I mean, you came off as a little rude. But its nothing I thought the mods would think twice about.


    And to any mods reading this, I am NOT bashing you guys or anything. I just wanted to make it clear his post didn't upset me.
    Im not second guessing your judgment call or such.
    Primary Carry Gun: Sig Sauer 229~R (.40cal w/ Golden Saber JHP's)

  6. #6
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    1) All guns are always loaded
    2) Never aim at anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3) Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot
    4) Always be aware of your target and what's behind it.
    I've been on too many gun ranges where your freedom of carry and bear arms rights are often violated by the range masters. I got myself intentionally kicked off one gun range cause they didn't like me sweeping the muzzle. I just got a warning here cause I had bad finger control.
    Just being silly but trying to make a point. And yes, you have the right to own a firearm but don't have the right to be unsafe around me the same way you have the right to say whatever pleases you but not necesarily in this forum.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  7. #7
    Member Array brian77's Avatar
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    not to play the devels advocate here, but there is another thread going on that is "who is this ritter guy" and he is being called a "clown" and his signing SB34 "stupid" which calls him "stupid".
    now does this mean i can bash on people who are not part of this forum?
    "Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget in time that men have died to win them." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    Well, I dont know if this will help or not.

    But I was the member the fat man said "would be stupid if...."
    And honestly, I didn't take any offense to it.
    I mean, you came off as a little rude. But its nothing I thought the mods would think twice about.


    And to any mods reading this, I am NOT bashing you guys or anything. I just wanted to make it clear his post didn't upset me.
    Im not second guessing your judgment call or such.
    Since the post is no longer available to you I will provide the actual quote.
    Don't be stupid, if it's broke, fix it.
    In reality it is not a question of whether you were upset or not. The statement as made could be interpreted as a personal attack. The moderator who removed it sent a PM with a warning with no points assigned. The warning was intended as that a warning. We are gaining new members everyday and the major reason cited for joining here is the civility. We are now under a new name and we want to keep it clean. Since the original statement could be interpreted as an insult the ideal response from the person posting it would be an acknowledgment that it could have been stated better. In stead there was a denial that the statement was an insult. This may be true from the point of view of the writer, but it was not clear by the statement as written. Unfortunately the writer then chose to air his complaint in public. We normally do not respond to those kinds of comments. However because of Bumper's post earlier this week about language and because it is obvious that many people have either not read or do not remember the rules I decided to respond here in the public arena.

    I hope that everyone reading this is aware by now that as a private venture this forum is not subject to the First Amendment and is clear that we will not tolerate attacks on other members nor attacks on moderators no matter who. I can assure you that we do not sit around just waiting for someone to mess up so that we can ban them. If a member gets banned here he had to work at it. We allow for small slips. That is why we have the point based infraction system. We often provide warnings with no points assigned. We want our members to enjoy and learn from this forum, but we want them to remember that it is not their own living room. What they do to their own property is their business, but what they do here is ours. And just like I would not allow someone to come into my house and damage it or insult one of my guests, we will not allow members to come in and damage this forum or insult one of our other guests.

    I have on occasion reduced our rules to one simple statement that communicates what Bumper and the moderators expect of members. That statement is:
    Do it right or do it elsewhere!
    At the present time I am waiting on the member who started this thread to respond and let me know which he wants to do - 1) Do it right. Or 2) Do it elsewhere. That is his call.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array INTJ's Avatar
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    Rather talk 'bout whats right here in this forum, gets me less agitated. I replied with the following to a pm recently:

    Thanks for the pm. There are quite a few Christians, to include ministers/pastors, on the forum. The admins seem to recognize this fact and actively promote and foster many of our values. What they do not tolerate is "heated debates/flame wars" which is a subjective call at best most times. I don't mind participating in them and have "cooled off" more than once and returned. Kinda like an adult time-out.
    Don't do the crime if ya can't do the time.
    "Beware of the man who only owns one gun. He probably knows how to use it."

  10. #10
    JT
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_cmg View Post
    That is why we have the point based infraction system. We often provide warnings with no points assigned.
    I didn't know there was a point based infraction system. Would we know if we had any points against us?

    I don’t think I would have any, I’m just curious.


    And BTW…I completely agree that this is a privately owned forum, so a person must abide by the rules of the owner. A person has freedom of speech, but that doesn’t mean they can come into my living room and cuss in front of my kids. They can say what they want out in the street once I have kicked them to the curb, but not in my house. I have had a couple of posts here deleted by moderators, and although I didn’t agree with the decisions I had a choice to accept them or go elsewhere. I decided I would rather stick around than make a big deal out of some minor difference of opinion.
    Last edited by JT; May 24th, 2007 at 10:05 AM.
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian77 View Post
    not to play the devels advocate here, but there is another thread going on that is "who is this ritter guy" and he is being called a "clown" and his signing SB34 "stupid" which calls him "stupid".
    now does this mean i can bash on people who are not part of this forum?
    Actually, Ritter was called a "clown" and someone did say that trying to tell him how "stupid" it was to sign the bill. Four things about that. 1) You are right he is not a member. He is a politician and a public figure. Part of being a public figure is opening yourself up to public comment. 2) IMO saying that someone did something stupid is not the same thing as saying that they are stupid. I readily admit that I have done my share of stupid things and will do some more I am sure. Does this make me a stupid person? I don't think so. 3) Obviously using the word stupid is certain contexts is not a problem. Why "obviously"? Check out my signature. 4) We, the moderators, are not perfect and yes, we make mistakes and we miss some things. I cannot speak for the others, but my experience indicates that they feel the same way. When I make a mistake I address it in the same arena that I made it in. If I have sent a PM to someone about something I thought was outside the rules and have been shown that I was wrong (it has happened) I responded with a PM that included an apology for misunderstanding or misreading the comment. If the mistake was made in a public venue then my apology was made in the public venue.

    Now to answer your question: "now does this mean i can bash on people who are not part of this forum?" Yes and no. We don't mind you taking to task some person who is a public figure as long as the language is within our guidelines. We do not allow you to use the forum for a vendetta against someone you do not like. There is no rule against disagreeing with anyone as long as it is done in a civil way. That's why the rules include words like "flame".
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

  12. #12
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    JT, the mods have a private sub-forum where they discuss matters pertaining to conduct, bans etc.

    This topic would be better suited to PMs IMO, Fat Man is obviously upset in the initial post and seems to be heading towards 'account suicide'.

    I've seen it too many times.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JT View Post
    I didn't know there was a point based infraction system. Would we know if we had any points against us?

    I donít think I would have any, Iím just curious.
    The assignment of an infraction automatically creates a PM that is sent to the person who receives the infraction. There is also space provided for the moderator to include an explanation. So if you had points against you, you should know it. Infraction points are also assigned an expiration date that is included in the PM. I would say that most of the infractions we give are custom assigned. Rather than have the system apply 2, 5, or 10 points we assign 0 points unless the user has been warned about the same activity earlier. Sometimes we allow points to be assigned and then in response to the member's explanation we remove the points or remove the infraction itself.

    We honestly don't come here with the desire to see who we can catch. We often consult other moderators to see if they agree with our interpretation of a point. Sometimes we assign an infraction and ask if the other moderators agree. There have been times when others have said that a particular response was excessive and the position has been changed. We are not perfect and we all try our best to be even handed and wise in our moderation, but we just like all humans we sometimes don't succeed.

    We really appreciate how easy most of our members make it to be a moderator here. We also realize that some people come here after having been on other forums that have rules that differ greatly from ours. Sometimes it takes a while to get used to the way we do things and we try our best to make allowances for that. At the same time we expect our members to understand that we will make allowances for only a limited period of time. Then if the member cannot accommodate himself or herself to our rules it is time for them to go somewhere that has rules they can accommodate themselves to.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

  14. #14
    Member Array OrganDonor's Avatar
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    A post critical of forum moderators? This is clearly a first for the internet!

    There is a good group of people moderating this forum from what I have seen. The problem here, as with all conversation on the internet, is that the tone of a post, and personality of the poster, can not be seen in the text.

    Try to be aware of that when you post. Be aware of what you have written and how another person might interpret it. Before you hit the submit button, read your post a second time. It will save you and the moderators trouble.

    Also, don't post angry. Nothing productive comes from posting angry. Don't feed the trolls either.

  15. #15
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrganDonor View Post

    Try to be aware of that when you post. Be aware of what you have written and how another person might interpret it. Before you hit the submit button, read your post a second time. It will save you and the moderators trouble.

    Also, don't post angry. Nothing productive comes from posting angry. Don't feed the trolls either.
    Agreed. Unless you are a first-class writer (Lima perhaps?) or litter your posts with 3000 emoticons then nobody knows if you are joking, mad or just being ironic.

    Counting to ten is fine when you are a little bit upset, but when you are 'internet-warrior' mad then try counting to 1000, I guarantee you will forget what and why you were angry before you finish counting, proving to you how important it was.

    Account suicide - don't do it!!

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