Death Penalty Deters Crime - merge

Death Penalty Deters Crime - merge

This is a discussion on Death Penalty Deters Crime - merge within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; It's not a far stretch to see how this same study would support CCW. Of course, what does scientific research have to do with agenda ...

Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Death Penalty Deters Crime - merge

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member
    Array aznav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Harrisonburg, VA
    Posts
    1,614

    Death Penalty Deters Crime - merge

    It's not a far stretch to see how this same study would support CCW. Of course, what does scientific research have to do with agenda driven 2nd Amendment haters:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070611/...lty_deterrence


  2. #2
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,484
    We must be careful to avoid this becoming a pro or con death penalty thread - it could go south easily.

    One problem I have come across is that if a perp were to all but know he could face execution - he finishes up in the ''nothing more to lose'' camp if a shooting type - what is three dead compared with one?

    It is a fact that mistakes have been made - but DNA typing does at least help that problem.

    There are many aspects to the issue - and that's what makes it so contraversial ---- on the one hand why should evil be allowed to live - on the other, why should the cost of keeping them in jail sit on the taxpayer!

    Then you have the retribution element where a true life sentence is or should be - a prolongued loss of liberty and suffering - execution being seen as easy way out.

    Oops - already getting into it too much - but hope we can stay non-adversarial anyways over any discussion.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Shelby County TN
    Posts
    11,137

    Studies say death penalty deters crime

    Studies say death penalty deters crime

    By ROBERT TANNER, AP National Writer 9 minutes ago

    Anti-death penalty forces have gained momentum in the past few years, with a moratorium in Illinois, court disputes over lethal injection in more than a half-dozen states and progress toward outright abolishment in New Jersey.
    ADVERTISEMENT

    The steady drumbeat of DNA exonerations pointing out flaws in the justice system has weighed against capital punishment. The moral opposition is loud, too, echoed in Europe and the rest of the industrialized world, where all but a few countries banned executions years ago.

    What gets little notice, however, is a series of academic studies over the last half-dozen years that claim to settle a once hotly debated argument whether the death penalty acts as a deterrent to murder. The analyses say yes. They count between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer.

    The reports have horrified death penalty opponents and several scientists, who vigorously question the data and its implications.

    So far, the studies have had little impact on public policy. New Jersey's commission on the death penalty this year dismissed the body of knowledge on deterrence as "inconclusive."

    But the ferocious argument in academic circles could eventually spread to a wider audience, as it has in the past.

    "Science does really draw a conclusion. It did. There is no question about it," said Naci Mocan, an economics professor at the University of Colorado at Denver. "The conclusion is there is a deterrent effect."

    A 2003 study he co-authored, and a 2006 study that re-examined the data, found that each execution results in five fewer homicides, and commuting a death sentence means five more homicides. "The results are robust, they don't really go away," he said. "I oppose the death penalty. But my results show that the death penalty (deters) what am I going to do, hide them?"

    Statistical studies like his are among a dozen papers since 2001 that capital punishment has deterrent effects. They all explore the same basic theory if the cost of something (be it the purchase of an apple or the act of killing someone) becomes too high, people will change their behavior (forego apples or shy from murder).

    To explore the question, they look at executions and homicides, by year and by state or county, trying to tease out the impact of the death penalty on homicides by accounting for other factors, such as unemployment data and per capita income, the probabilities of arrest and conviction, and more.

    Among the conclusions:

    Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by professors at Emory University. (Other studies have estimated the deterred murders per execution at three, five and 14).

    The Illinois moratorium on executions in 2000 led to 150 additional homicides over four years following, according to a 2006 study by professors at the University of Houston.

    Speeding up executions would strengthen the deterrent effect. For every 2.75 years cut from time spent on death row, one murder would be prevented, according to a 2004 study by an Emory University professor.

    In 2005, there were 16,692 cases of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter nationally. There were 60 executions.

    The studies' conclusions drew a philosophical response from a well-known liberal law professor, University of Chicago's Cass Sunstein. A critic of the death penalty, in 2005 he co-authored a paper titled "Is capital punishment morally required?"

    "If it's the case that executing murderers prevents the execution of innocents by murderers, then the moral evaluation is not simple," he told The Associated Press. "Abolitionists or others, like me, who are skeptical about the death penalty haven't given adequate consideration to the possibility that innocent life is saved by the death penalty."

    Sunstein said that moral questions aside, the data needs more study.

    Critics of the findings have been vociferous.

    Some claim that the pro-deterrent studies made profound mistakes in their methodology, so their results are untrustworthy. Another critic argues that the studies wrongly count all homicides, rather than just those homicides where a conviction could bring the death penalty. And several argue that there are simply too few executions each year in the United States to make a judgment.

    "We just don't have enough data to say anything," said Justin Wolfers, an economist at the Wharton School of Business who last year co-authored a sweeping critique of several studies, and said they were "flimsy" and appeared in "second-tier journals."

    "This isn't left vs. right. This is a nerdy statistician saying it's too hard to tell," Wolfers said. "Within the advocacy community and legal scholars who are not as statistically adept, they will tell you it's still an open question. Among the small number of economists at leading universities whose bread and butter is statistical analysis, the argument is finished."

    Several authors of the pro-deterrent reports said they welcome criticism in the interests of science, but said their work is being attacked by opponents of capital punishment for their findings, not their flaws.

    "Instead of people sitting down and saying 'let's see what the data shows,' it's people sitting down and saying 'let's show this is wrong,'" said Paul Rubin, an economist and co-author of an Emory University study. "Some scientists are out seeking the truth, and some of them have a position they would like to defend."

    The latest arguments replay a 1970s debate that had an impact far beyond academic circles.

    Then, economist Isaac Ehrlich had also concluded that executions deterred future crimes. His 1975 report was the subject of mainstream news articles and public debate, and was cited in papers before the
    U.S. Supreme Court arguing for a reversal of the court's 1972 suspension of executions. (The court, in 1976, reinstated the death penalty.)

    Ultimately, a panel was set up by the
    National Academy of Sciences which decided that Ehrlich's conclusions were flawed. But the new pro-deterrent studies haven't gotten that kind of scrutiny.

    At least not yet. The academic debate, and the larger national argument about the death penalty itself with questions about racial and economic disparities in its implementation shows no signs of fading away.

    Steven Shavell, a professor of law and economics at Harvard Law School and co-editor-in-chief of the American Law and Economics Review, said in an e-mail exchange that his journal intends to publish several articles on the statistical studies on deterrence in an upcoming issue.
    The story may be read at its original location here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070611/...lty_deterrence
    ,=====o00o _
    //___l__,\____\,__
    l_--- \___l---[]lllllll[]
    (o)_)-o- (o)_)--o-)_)

  4. #4
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    45,511
    My dad told me a million times...and now I understand and agree...

    The death penalty may or may not deter crime...but it sure deters repeat offenders, and we ALL know how often the BG's have looooooong rap sheets...

    One application of 'death penalty' and repeat the offender is cured!

    OMO

    ret
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  5. #5
    Senior Moderator
    Array limatunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,246
    This is about deterring crime, not preventing repeated crime so let me see if I can stick my foot in the door here.

    So many things in childhood translate so well into adulthood.

    Growing up eight years younger than my eldest brother I got to see, first hand, what happened when a child in our family disrespected my mother.

    My father threw my brother out the front door and said, "When I married your mother, I swore her to protect her. If I wouldn't let some bum on the street talk to her like that I'm certainly not going to let anyone in this home talk to her like that and remain here."

    That set a very good president for what any of us younger kids could expect should we disrespect our mother.

    I always held her in the greatest of respects.

    I go over to "friend's" houses and I watch at their children disrespect them, curse at them, blatantly disrespect their parent's rules, right in front of their faces and the first thing that goes through my mind is, "OH MY GOD, if that were me I would have been out on my ear six months ago, and that would only be the beginning of my suffering."

    They don't have the respect that I had growing up because they don't fear the same consequences that I did.

    Even hearing punk kids talk disrespectfully to their mothers makes me look over my shoulder for my father to come out of the woodwork, pick them up by their ear and their belt loops and throw them out the front door.

    The second greatest motivator (topped only by love) is fear.

    People who know they have something to fear should they perform a certain action, tend to keep that in mind.

    We see it every day on the high-ways of America.

    You are driving along on a road at 63 miles per hour in a 55 speed zone, behind five cars that are doing the same.

    Suddenly, everyone in front of you slams on their breaks and everyone starts going 54.

    Before long, there he is, the police car, sitting there, watching, waiting to catch that idiot who decided they'd take their chance.

    All those people (including you, probably) fear the retribution of a police officer with a pen.

    How much more persuasive to the criminal is an executioner with his hand on a syringe (or a switch)?

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member
    Array aznav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Harrisonburg, VA
    Posts
    1,614
    I cannot think of any travesty of justice greater than to be executed for a crime he or she did not commit. I'm sure it has happened many times in the U.S. I am all for a moratorium if DNA can, in fact, determine clearly one's guilt or innocence.
    My only point was not to discuss the morality of the death penalty but to see the data and draw a conclusion many of us already have reached: Responsible CCW holders can help deter crime.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Southwestern OK
    Posts
    2,017
    Here in OK we have had more than our share non-guilty folks sitting on death row. Much of this is due to "forensics scientist" Joyce Gilchrist. This woman routinely lied on the witness stand.

    Then there was the self appointed avenging Angel of God, prosecutor Bob Macy, who bragged on national TV that he put more folks on death row than any other prosecutor in the USA. If the truth were known, Macy most likely pressured Gilchrist into lying on the witness stand. Macy resigned when the Gilchrist scandal broke.

    Am all for the death penalty in capital cases, but it has to be done right.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    2,753
    I've seen quite a number of studies and lots of analyses, and I remain unconvinced that the death penalty is a general deterrent to crime of any sort. I do not believe the argument in favor of the death penalty for the sake of deterrence has ever been adequately made. There are two reasons for this (greatly abbreviated), when considering capital crimes. One, in crimes of passion. The act is committed without premeditation or consideration of punishment, so there's no deterrent effect. Second, in premeditated crimes, the individual believes they're not going to be caught, so there's no deterrent effect. Justifying capital punishment for the sake of deterrence is tenuous at best.

    And, might I add, I just don't care. I am entirely convinced, and I believe that empirical evidence will back me up, that the death penalty is in fact a specific deterrent to any crime that would have been committed by the individual who is executed.

    I feel there are some crimes that are so heinous that the individual abrogates their right to life within our society. I feel no obligation to support them for the rest of their natural life. I feel no need for any greater good than exacting societal revenge upon that individual, and have no moral qualms about it, as long as the individual has received the benefit of all fair adudication. I do not feel that a sentence of death requires as its basis the prevention of like crimes by other individuals.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    OBX, NC
    Posts
    2,655
    It sure does cut down on repeat offenses, but innocent people on death row would get murdered by us, the supposed good guys. It's a no-win situation, but life sentences without the possibility of parole may solve both problems.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    3,164
    This'll probably upset a few, but here goes:

    To me, the deterrent benefit is only a bonus. Sometimes, it's just the most suitable punishment.
    Spend few minutes learning about my journey from Zero to Athlete in this
    Then check out my blog! www.BodyByMcDonalds.com

    Cupcake - 100 pound loser, adventurer, Ironman Triathlete.

  11. #11
    Member Array ttpete's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Mich
    Posts
    333
    The recidivism rate is zero.

    NRA Benefactor member
    Michigan Antique Arms Collectors life member
    Ohio Gun Collectors member

    Opinions expressed here are based upon Michigan state law ONLY. Other state laws may differ. Know and observe your local laws.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    south Florida
    Posts
    3,168
    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    My dad told me a million times...and now I understand and agree...

    The death penalty may or may not deter crime...but it sure deters repeat offenders, and we ALL know how often the BG's have looooooong rap sheets...

    One application of 'death penalty' and repeat the offender is cured!

    That is the not-often-enough discussed relevant fact #1 about the death penalty.

    When people offer, "The death penalty is obviously not a deterrent because people still murder people in places that have the death penalty," we need to respond with two things:

    - We need to point out the fact that most crimes are committed by people who've already been committing crimes

    - There are people who have committed murders/manslaughters, been released, and done it again (Those recidivists would be "cured" by the death penalty)

    - we don't know how many other murders were in fact deterred, because they did not happen

    These are affirmative defenses of the death penalty, but we don't see them being employed enough in the very public debate about it.

  13. #13
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    45,511
    Yep,...really narrows down the repeat offenders...

    ret
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    south Florida
    Posts
    3,168
    I thought I'd add this to the discussion, since it strikes me as a weird coincidence.

    The other night I was impulse-shopping a bit at sprawlmart and bought myself a 2 DVD set of The Outer Limits (the original black and white series from the '60s).

    I just started playing an episode called "The Zanti Misfits." Here are the opening lines, voiced by the narrator:

    "Throughout history, compassionate minds have pondered this dark and disturbing question: What is society to do with those members who are a threat to society, those malcontents and misfits whose behavior undermines and destroys the foundations of civilization? Different ages have found different answers. Misfits have been burned, branded, and banished. Today, on this planet Earth, the criminal is incarcerated in humane institutions. Or, he is executed. Other planets use other methods. This is the story of how the perfectionist rulers of the planet Zanti attempted to solve the problem of the Zanti misfits."


    Heh. Kinda makes you think, doesn't it? Now, I return to watching the episode.

  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    1,548
    I agree with Aznav, at least as far as we are dealing with perps who are exercising a certain level of rational thought.

    If you know there is a significant chance that you're going to get shot and killed if you try to do something bad, you're less likely to try.

    The drugged-up ones, the ones who don't care if they live or die and the lunatics are a different story. They're not deterred by anything.
    "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."


    Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. State seeks death penalty for man who murdered officer Phil Davis
    By fox2102 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: December 19th, 2009, 12:35 AM
  2. No Death Penalty For Child Rape (merged)
    By 4my sons in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 62
    Last Post: June 26th, 2008, 11:41 AM
  3. Death Penalty in NJ
    By prawls in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: December 18th, 2007, 01:29 PM
  4. Strongest argument yet for CCW - crime rate increase - merge
    By pogo2 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: March 15th, 2007, 05:54 PM