Just a little old lady.

Just a little old lady.

This is a discussion on Just a little old lady. within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I happened to catch Jay Leno last night, and one of his guests was Jane Fonda, certainly a lightning rod for discussion. I've always been ...

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  1. #1
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    Just a little old lady.

    I happened to catch Jay Leno last night, and one of his guests was Jane Fonda, certainly a lightning rod for discussion. I've always been amazed at how criticism thrown at her also hurts me, and for many of the same reasons.

    It seems that critics get to grow up and alter their opinions as time goes on. I'll bet no one here wants to see their high school yearbook flaunted or the list of 'the ten things I want to accomplish' printed for the general public. I mean, if they read "I want to marry David Cassidy" the guffaws could be heard over gunfire. How many of you still have "Spice Girls" albums?

    This courtesy is never offered in the political arena. If you want to depict President Bush as a drunken lout, you publish a 30 year old picture of him at a frat party.

    As a child of the Vietnam era, I am deeply troubled by my conduct and speech during those years. If you're my age, you probably are, as well.

    I was recently reminded of the contravery of Barbarella on the gun implacement. Certainly there are scores of veterans who will never forgive Hanoi Jane for wasting their oxygen.

    In this light, I saw a creaky 60 year old woman, gesticulating with wizzened hands, hawk the first movie she has done in over 13 years. This wasn't Hanoi Jane, but an older and wiser woman looking back at her life with some regret.

    I have sought out many of the people in life that I have offended and personally apologized for my conduct, a procedure that I can easily manage as this list has perhaps 40 names. Oh, to be sure, I owe a blanket apology to many more, and this is humanly impossible.

    So it is for Jane Fonda. She reiterated that she has apologized many times. To some it will never be enough.

    In the walk of life, someday you will be our age, that is in your fifties and sixties. Today is my birthday, I am 55 years old. I have many pictures of an arrogant twenty year old biker astride a customized Harley with an Elvis Presley grin on his face. And trust me, that 'boy' would have cut off your foot had he even thought you were standing on a quarter.

    You reflect, you make changes, you face cognitive dissidence with some abject horror. Even the filthiest among us finally bows his head and prays for direction.

    And if you're going to string up Hanoi Jane, you might as well craft a hangman's knot for me. To many I will always be that boy, even in self-effacing humor. When is the debt paid?


  2. #2
    Member Array Fjolnirsson's Avatar
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    Hmm. Good thoughts, man. Thanks.
    Nobody has a spotless life. We all make mistakes. It's part of maturing.
    My vote is, we keep you around a bit longer before stringin' ya up. But we're watching you.
    "Water can flow, or it can crash. Be like water, my friend."-Bruce Lee

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  3. #3
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    In this light, I saw a creaky 60 year old woman, gesticulating with wizzened hands, hawk the first movie she has done in over 13 years. This wasn't Hanoi Jane, but an older and wiser woman looking back at her life with some regret.
    She was a clear-headed adult who consciously chose to do what she did then. She chose to aid the enemy. She should've traded places with my mother. I'd like to see her give up her spoiled lifestyle to live knee deep in a rice paddy with a mandatory picture of Ho Chi Minh on her mantle.

    It takes a lot to anger my father. He's the most reserved, poker-faced person I know. But when Hanoi Jane comes on TV, his face turns red and his voice will shake, "I can't stand that woman."

    She can "apologize" all she wants to sell her new book. Apologizing isn't good enough.

    I don't have to string her up. Karma will do that.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Yea, but...

    I eventually became against the Vietnam war, as many did, because it became clear that our government was not trying to win the war. Drawing a line in the sand was a waste of our soldiers lives. I did not protest, burn my countries flag, spit on our soldiers or use the war as an opportunity to do drugs and tune out as they use to say. I did not give aid and comfort to my countries enemies. I did not allow myself to be used as a propaganda tool by my countries enemy's. I did not give messages passed to me by American prisoners being tortured to their captives which resulted in more torture and deaths. (Jane did as she was using these prisoners to further her propaganda, I never was in that position so please don't misunderstand what I am trying to say.) Jane did all of these things and more. She was in a unique position as a celebrity to help our troops or hurt them. She choose to hurt them and I believe she knew exactly what she was doing. Now she is trying to make even more money with her book. Sorry, her apology is not acceptable. Some time in a federal prison to ponder her mistakes is.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  5. #5
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    First - Tourist - Happy Birthday dude ..... wait a few years till that big one comes, adding another zero!!!

    This Fonda thing will never go away. I think that with her ''faux pas'' - it was too big, too serious and for many, too unforgiveable. That she has to live with - in the same way a reformed killer might have to always regret his acts - the clock cannot be turned back.

    I have little doubt she feels regret and is remorseful - but this will still not cut it for so many. I could, like Tourist - think of numerous ''wrongs'' committed when very young - and have a wish where possible to ''patch up'' and right a wrong. Thjat would be really just small scale and mostly personal stuff - not something that all but rang round the globe.

    There are those who are prepared to forgive but not necessarily forget - the rest will carry their grievance to their graves - sad fact you may think but true.
    Chris - P95
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  6. #6
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    I'm sorry Tourist, but as a Vietnam Vet I cannot and will not ever forgive Hanoi Jane for what she did.

    Not only did she pose for those pictures on the AA guns that were shooting down our aircraft and airmen, while she was being shown a POW camp one of the prisoners, memory fails me and I can't remember the name, secretly handed her a note that he expected for her to get back to our intel guys. She gave the note to the commandant of the camp and caused this POW a great amount of torture. This type of thing is, in my mind, unforgivable and unforgettable.
    I'm totally behind the gentleman who the other day spit tobacco juice in her face during one of her book signings in recognition of her achievements of furthering the NVA cause during the war.

    As for me Jane Fonda can rot in hell.
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

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  7. #7
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    Tourist, you're right about some of the things we have done during youth that, today, are relatively minor. But as a mass murderer can't be forgiven just because he was young at the time of his crime and, IMHO, neither can Jane "Hanoi Jane" Fonda. In my mind she should have been executed as a traitor long ago. I hope that when she is lying on her deathbed and mere seconds from her death somebody will heartily spit in her face.

    My vote goes for her rotting in hell, as well.
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  8. #8
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    I'm well aware that many of you feel that way, and I cannot really blame you. In everyone's heart there is a 'deal breaker,' and for Jane Fonda, the photo op and her subsequent comments clearly are engrained in our vets.

    I dealt with my bag of demons during my first breakdown. Foolishly, I volunteered a the Madison Vets' Hospital before my proper drug regime was fully ramped up and the cognitive therapy had just begun. Praying helped, but my improper attempt to righteously square things set my treatment back months, if not for the entire year.

    I probably have done more than Jane.

    The Bible says are best efforts to God are like 'filthy rags.' For comparison, that means that the entire life of Mother Teresa is 'filthy' compared to the works and love offered by God.

    Further, God's ability to forgive surpasses our ability to sin, as it must. Otherwise it would be impossible to obtain salvation.

    Many believe that Malcomb X provided goals to millions of blacks during that dark period in our nation's history. I remember Malcomb X as a pusher, pimp and ex-con. Certainly man must be given a chance to change.

    I'm not really speaking about Jane Fonda, per se. I saw this old woman, and I felt the hate that is several decades old. I would not like to shoulder that burden, and yet, my sins are as great.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array Geezer's Avatar
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    "To some, it will never be enough"

    Tourist, you sure can open a can of worms !!! Here, one moment Prospector is talking about keeping profanity off the forum, and you bring up one (of three) individuals that can make me go postal !! Good fire, man .

    I'll leave forgiveness to a much higher authority. Nobody wanted to be there, and most opposed the war. She spit on us. We joined ,or we were drafted, but we went, so did she. Over 50,000 didn't come back alive, others came back with less than we went over with. Those lucky enough to return, were greeted by the likes of jf. Her appologies are false, but it sells books( she need the money, bless her commie heart). I sadly suspect that this Michael J. Smith that spit on her was a publicity stunt to gain more attention for her great comeback. I hope I'm wrong, but the idea is most refreshing. She will always be a druggie /airhead /hippie (good bod) with nothing more than good name that she ruined. Hillery her.

  10. #10
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    As a child of the Vietnam era, I am deeply troubled by my conduct and speech during those years. If you're my age, you probably are, as well.
    I for one am NOT, I graduated in '71, I was ostracized in high school in a big 10 university town because I stood up and declared my love and support for my county and openly said I wanted to be a pilot in the Marine Corps when almost everyone else were hippies. I enlisted in the Marine Corps reserves my senior year even though my draft number was 352, and was in boot camp 1 week after graduation. I went through college with a high and tight and after the first summer camp a USMC Devil Dog tattoo on my right forearm. A motorcycle crash resulted in a torn ligament and cartilage and ended my dream of being a pilot. I was spit on a couple times on campus by followers of Hanoi Jane, called names and had some problems with professors in classes; I was never in Viet Nam but I caught some of crap from Jane's 5th columnists, I will forgive Hanoi Jane right after the Jews forgive Hitler.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer
    Hillery her.
    Now that's the BEST replacement swear word I have heard in a long time. Maybe I should just change the bad word filter to replace all swear words with that.....
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  12. #12
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    I think we're actually getting sidetracked about the war and not our paths through life, and believe me I know how readily this happens.

    As I've stated, I'm a baby boomer. As such, in any circle of friends that I have, almost all of the people have their slant. As a biker, there is a veteran's cycle club--I meet them often at the parts counter. I'm a target shooter--and a dear friend, the guy who organizes almost all of our Ducks Unlimited events, is a veteran who came back changed. And he cannot change back. As a Madison resident and a member of a church--I routinely see people here who protested during those years.

    In fact, when my friends and I gather for a beer and the general bull-session of girls, cars and politics, there will always be one of us who begins his comments with, "Now, I remember 20 years ago..." That habit slips into my comments more than I'd like. (And we are starting to modify that phrase with "40 years ago.")

    No argument from me, we can never erase those years from our memory. In fact, I think the best attributes of my life were smelted during the conflict.

    My reason for starting this thread was not even about Fonda and her actions. My observations were more to my belief that her critics get the privilege of defining and improving their lives (My friend Phil, the unchanged veteran, is a more kinder man.) Our enemies never get the same chance.

    I'll give you a parallel. As a young boy I watched WWII veterans go to historic places and meet German soldiers. I waited for them to begin killing them. I was confused when they embraced.

    I'm aware of the tumult. But several times I heard the "granny crack" of Jane's voice during her interview, and I felt the press of my recent birthday and remembered my own journey back. Let me label that clearly and properly for you. My own sin.

    Let me tell you of time, I considered myself the jokester of my club, and still do, in fact. When reminscing I tend to linger on the bikes, the women and the laughter of boys that age. I tend to skim over the fact that on any given night I might have beaten you to death with a pool cue for your slip of the tongue.

    I changed. I simply had to and wanted to. This thread is frankly wondering out loud on how our age views themselves. Remember, I began this with the words "lightning rod." Boy, she sure is, ain't she?

  13. #13
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    Leaving aside the ''JF factor'' - and just thinkin' aloud re age etc - I will admit to having changed in many ways, that seem to for the most part line up with most/many other folks my age. Some things are tho almost paradoxical.

    I have mellowed in many ways - and yet my tolerance for fools has gotten even less!!! I wish to trust more - and yet trust less overall - because of the ''school of hard knocks''. I am saddened by many current trends - I mourne the apparent disappearance or reduction in things I have held dear all my life - honor, integrity, respect.

    Probably tho the biggest theme these days is - the awareness of mortality. No longer is ''later'' implying infinity - that future that used to seem assured and endless. I am no longer ''indestructible'' - I ache in places I would prefer not to and am limited in what I can do compared with once. I value my life on a daily basis and put way more effort into making a day special - which includes telling those dear to me that they are loved.

    This is probably not quite what Tourist was after but - hey - when I get on a ramble - there's no knowing what I'll spout! Maybe tho it does have some correlation with others of ''advanced years''??
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  14. #14
    Member Array Fjolnirsson's Avatar
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    To some here, I'm "just a kid", not yet 30 years old. Yet even in that meager span of years, my views have changed. The years make an impact on our beliefs, and the way in which we pecieve the world. If I could go back and talk to that kid in high school, I would have a lot to say. I learn more every day, and if the day comes when I stop learning, I'll be dead.
    As an example, when I was young, I was very liberal in my views. My thinking was that nobody "needed" a gun, and "a real man would use a knife or a sword or his hands".
    Needless to say, some of my former thoughts and beliefs make me sick to my stomach.
    Now, I'm a fairly hard-core Libertarian, with some views so far to the right, they make me most Republicans uncomfortable. Think Ted Nugent.
    But I have learned the value of an open debate. I have learned that it's impossible to be "left alone" by the rest of society. Like it or not, what others choose affects me. So, far from the anti-political, naive youngster I was, I now jump in the fray and do my best to change the rules so they're more to my liking. where was I going with this? I don't know.
    Good thread.
    "Water can flow, or it can crash. Be like water, my friend."-Bruce Lee

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  15. #15
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    I would bet that everyone on this earth has regrets and things to live down that happened in their youth. I certainly have things that I have done in the past that I am not proud of. Some can be forgiven, some cannot. Some can be forgiven if you come out and acknowledge that you were wrong back then and cannot be forgiven no matter what you say or do. We all want to move past the things we have done wrong, but some can't be. So it is with Hanoi Jane. They're too serious to forgive or forget.
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

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