The FairTax - Familiar With It? Never Heard Of It? - Page 5

The FairTax - Familiar With It? Never Heard Of It?

This is a discussion on The FairTax - Familiar With It? Never Heard Of It? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by ptmmatssc The idea that we should give a pass to companies on paying taxes because " they will invest in people and ...

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Thread: The FairTax - Familiar With It? Never Heard Of It?

  1. #61
    Member Array BluesStringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptmmatssc View Post
    The idea that we should give a pass to companies on paying taxes because " they will invest in people and community" or "it will free up money to employ more people" is naive at best .
    Do you honestly believe that corporations actually pay taxes? I got news for you, they don't. Every penny that the government confiscates from the job-creators of this country is passed onto the consumer in the form of higher prices at the register. The correlation between corporate tax increases and rising prices is indisputable. The reason is simple, taxes are nothing more than a component of the cost of doing business, all of which ends up in the final price of every good and service you buy. All of corporate America passes on its labor costs, its materials costs, its bad debt costs, its enormous costs of complying with the current system, so why on Earth would anyone seriously try to say that tax liabilities wouldn't be passed on just the same way? Taxes on companies don't cost companies a penny, they cost you!

    Quote Originally Posted by ptmmatssc View Post
    You only need to look around at what the upper echelon of companies pay themselves , while cutting back their workforce , to understand that it's plain and simple greed . They of course like the idea of the "fair tax" because it frees up more money they can use for their own wages .
    First, can you define "greed" for everyone? Do you make only what you need to get by and turn down raises so that you don't appear greedy? If not, at what dollar-figure above your needs would you consider it "greedy" for you to earn while others aren't earning near as much? If the word "greed" has a clear definition, then there must be some line you can give us to know when we've overstepped the income that we would be allowed to make under a "no-greed" system.

    Of course, these are rhetorical questions because no American would ever admit to being greedy just for getting paid for their hard work, sacrifice of time, ambition, or entrepreneurial spirit. But upper echelon executives and companies that get there ahead of you are "greedy" because they get paid for the exact same things?

    "Greed" is an absolutely meaningless word in a free, capitalist society. Whatever "greed" you project on others for their successes can just as easily be turned against you for your successes, and I doubt seriously that you would be ready and willing to hand over your "excess" earnings to those who define "enough" down below what you make.

    As far as The FairTax freeing "...up more money they can use for their own wages" I gotta wonder how you come to that conclusion. I would say that any company could increase their executives' wages right this minute if the market would bear the increases in prices for the goods or services they produce. But the market won't bear it, nor would it bear it under The FairTax. The axioms of macroeconomics won't change just because the manner in which taxes are collected changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptmmatssc View Post
    Having worked for both the fed gov and large private companies , I can say that "tax reform" is nothing more than a shell game .
    Why would the fact that you have worked for the fed and large private companies make you any more qualified to *say* anything? I, too, have worked for the fed and for large companies. Does that mean if I can say that "tax reform" is the only thing that will save this country from imminent demise that I should be believed any more than anyone who hasn't worked for the fed and large companies? I don't get why your very vague work history would make you more believable.

    Whatever, the only shell game I see is in the current system. You look under one shell to get your deductions. Bummer, not under that one. You look under another shell to find your exemptions. You have to drive across town to find the tax preparer under another shell. Your representatives in Congress are inundated every day with lobbyists trying to create more shells to hide deductions/exemptions/profits under for their own cloistered group of clients. You have to find just the right savings and investment plans to ummm.....shell-ter yourself from paying taxes.

    I fail to see how The FairTax is a shell game at all. Everyone knows what they owe in taxes. They don't have to pay anyone to figure it out for them. They don't have to fart around with filing a return or even telling the government how much they make. It is, after all, none of the government's damn business; they work for us, we don't work for them!

    Quote Originally Posted by ptmmatssc View Post
    It comes down to who can convince the others that it's "good for them" to take the burden of taxes .
    Really? Can you cite one single increased tax burden on either a group of individuals or a specific industry that was convinced that accepting that increase willingly was going to be good for them? It's quite the other way around methinks. Lobbyists convince government hacks to work towards mandates of punishing success through increased tax burdens! And in almost every case, the clients of the lobbyists doing the convincing stand to gain some advantage over the targets of the increases! Talk about a shell game!

    Quote Originally Posted by ptmmatssc View Post
    REAL tax reform is cutting spending , cutting unnecessary programs, cutting pet projects , accountability , and consensus of the people to institute a tax for a single purpose , not a "general fund" etc .
    Actually, the things you have listed here have absolutely nothing to do with tax reform. They're all laudable goals, but they will never be reached simply by virtue of either changing the way taxes are collected, or maintaining the status quo. Tax policy is tax policy; spending policy is spending policy, and unfortunately, the consensus of The People has had almost nothing to do with either since 1909 when the 16th Amendment was passed. The FairTax is the only tax proposal that virtually eliminates the ability of politicians and special interests (lobbyists) to manipulate the tax code to their own benefit. That's power back in the hands of The People. That's accountability. That's transparency in government. The status quo simply maintains all the gripes, legitimate though they are, that you have about the way our government is funded and what they do with it presently.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptmmatssc View Post
    Btw , property tax is tantamount to "renting" what you have paid for . It's sad that a person can lose their home/land for lack of paying taxes .
    I don't have any problem with what you're saying here, but it has nothing to do with The FairTax. There's no federal property taxes in effect that I am aware of, so this is a state issue that won't be effected negatively or positively under The FairTax. It's actually somewhat analogous to The FairTax though, in that if you want to change it, you have to take responsibility for your government. You have to wrest your government back from the clutches of run amok politician-spendthrifts. You have to start/join/support a grass-roots movement that works towards the goals you envision, just as I, and hundreds of thousands of other folks, are doing with The FairTax.

    Blues
    "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -- George Washington


  2. #62
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    After all of the well-thought out posts and logical discussion, I feel like I'm 'dumbing' this thread down by posting.

    So be it!

    I like the concept of the Fair Tax. I just honestly think that dissolving the burocracy (sp) of the IRS and the entire tax support system as well as actually minimizing the tax codes will be next to impossible.

    But I'd like to see it!

    I spend as little as possible right now because of the cost of living and tax structure.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Hulk View Post
    After all of the well-thought out posts and logical discussion, I feel like I'm 'dumbing' this thread down by posting.

    So be it!

    I like the concept of the Fair Tax. I just honestly think that dissolving the burocracy (sp) of the IRS and the entire tax support system as well as actually minimizing the tax codes will be next to impossible.

    But I'd like to see it!
    Baby Hulk, you definitely have a point in that getting The FairTax passed is a long-shot. But take a look at this video of a FT rally back in May of this year in Columbia, SC. It was the night of one of the early (maybe first?) Republican debates, which took place right next door to the building where the rally was held. It's no small feat to get 8,000 - 10,000 people out in support for any issue, much less on a Tuesday when we all had to sacrifice a day of work to be there. But the real kicker is, how many well-attended rallies have any of us ever seen, or even ever heard of, that is about nothing but TAXES? It's not exactly what one might call a "sexy" issue, yet thousands turned out for this one on a work-day, and the same kind of rally was repeated with similar attendance at the Ames, IA Republican debate about a month ago.

    I'm not saying that a high level of interest will necessarily win the day, but I do think it moves The FairTax at least a notch or two above "next to impossible." This is grass-roots politics of the first order. None of us who believe deeply in it are counting on politicians to do anything but what they always do; vote for those things which they perceive will get them reelected. This rally and all the others across the country that have happened in the last couple of years are just the start. Next stop: The Mall in Washington D.C., either just before the primaries or just before the general election. A couple of hundred thousand+ people marching in favor of a tax proposal fer cryin' out loud, will get the attention of politicians, especially those who are up for reelection this coming cycle.

    It ain't gonna be easy, but it is doable. All it takes is participation from everyone who can see the prudence of the plan. If that's you, join us! Get involved! As little as a couple of emails to your representatives could help immensely!

    Hope to shake your hand one day and say, "We did it!"

    Blues
    "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -- George Washington

  4. #64
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptmmatssc View Post
    Tubby45 and packinnova both have some goods points




    . Personally , "flat tax " , "fair tax" , "_____ tax" , it doesn't matter . "tax reform" is nothing but shifting where the taxes come from . Rather than trying to make any tax seem "fair" , why not work on eliminating the very reasons for taxes in the first place?



    Good point. Unless a company is state/gov owned , then they are a private entity . The monies earned go into private hands , the same way my paycheck does for the work I provide my employer . The idea that we should give a pass to companies on paying taxes because " they will invest in people and community" or "it will free up money to employ more people" is naive at best . You only need to look around at what the upper echelon of companies pay themselves , while cutting back their workforce , to understand that it's plain and simple greed . They of course like the idea of the "fair tax" because it frees up more money they can use for their own wages .

    Having worked for both the fed gov and large private companies , I can say that "tax reform" is nothing more than a shell game . It comes down to who can convince the others that it's "good for them" to take the burden of taxes . REAL tax reform is cutting spending , cutting unnecessary programs, cutting pet projects , accountability , and consensus of the people to institute a tax for a single purpose , not a "general fund" etc .

    Btw , property tax is tantamount to "renting" what you have paid for . It's sad that a person can lose their home/land for lack of paying taxes .

    The following seems more appropriate for taxation , if moneis are needed .



    http://usafoundingfathers.blogspot.c...-tax-plan.html

    May be just someones blog , but seems to make more sense to me than the current spend ,borrow,tax scheme we have going now .
    Emphasis added: What's wrong with greed? Everyone these days seems to think greed is a bad thing? Ugg...I guess I have to refer to "old school" text (the kind of thinking that gets our kids educators fired): Well, I was going to post the whole excerpt..but Ithink it's a bit too long so I'll just link to someone who already has it online:
    Francisco's Money Speech
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  5. #65
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    The problem is that the big corporations are perfectly justified in being greedy - they are private companies and should be able to do whatever they want to. The problem is that the big government laws and tax structure make it difficult for a small business owner so there is little local competition - which in turn makes it difficult for people employed by the corporations to quit based on their convictions or opinions about the company they work for. Its a vicious cycle, and everytime more spending and more taxes get voted for it gets worse. The problem is the government, not the taxes.

    Austin

  6. #66
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Among the problems I see with this is that you're just swapping items..for example: Houses for Acres. WTH is the difference
    The difference being now you will be taxed upon the amount of space you are taking up instead of the value of the property.

    Property should NEVER EVER be taxed. Property is what we have to show for our hard work. It's already been paid for in blood, sweat, and tears. No one should be allowed to devalue or take value from it
    I disagree.

    Sales tax and commercial vs private sales: Commercial sales ARE private sales. If not, what are they?
    Sales and commercial tax is from a business operation for profit, be it a corporation, LLC, or sole proprietorship. If you buy from a business entity that is taxable. Private sales are everything else.

    Example: A commercial sale is when you go buy carpet from a carpet store. You are buying from a business, you pay sales tax.

    Example: You have a yard sale. Your neighbor comes over and buys a microwave for $5. That sale is tax free as it is a private sale.

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