Federal Government Bans Flag-folding Recitations

This is a discussion on Federal Government Bans Flag-folding Recitations within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I copied this from the rules section of our site. I thought it was appropriate based on the content of this post. -------------------------------- A note ...

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Thread: Federal Government Bans Flag-folding Recitations

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    Member Array Inspector_Gadget's Avatar
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    Federal Government Bans Flag-folding Recitations

    I copied this from the rules section of our site. I thought it was appropriate based on the content of this post.

    --------------------------------
    A note on FREE SPEECH:
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
    --------------------------------

    Posting this in from another email I received.

    Federal Government Bans Flag-folding Recitations
    by Michael {Don't got religion, I got Christ!} C.
    October 26, 2007 04:53 PM EDT
    comments: 18

    Federal government bans flag-folding recitations following one complaint.

    It is time for Christians to say enough is enough

    In the latest attack on Christianity, the U.S. government has banned the flag-folding recitations at all 125 national cemeteries. The banning came as the result of one complaint! The situation is similar to that in which one person removed prayer from schools.

    This article from The Associated Press explains the situation:

    Complaints about religious content have led to a ban on flag-folding recitations by Veterans Administration employees and volunteers at all national cemeteries.

    At thousands of military burials, VA volunteers have folded the American flag 13 times and recited the significance of each fold to survivors. The 11th fold glorifies "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The 12th glorifies "God the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost."
    (http://www.usflag.org/foldflag.html)

    Citing a need for uniformity, the National Cemetery Administration has prohibited unpaid VA volunteers as well as employees from conducting the recital at all 125 national cemeteries.

    American Legion attorney Rees Lloyd calls it "another attempt by secularist fanatics to cleanse any reference to God."

    Following one complaint, the Veterans Administration has made anti-Christian bigotry the law of the land. The U.S. government has bowed to pressure from one radical anti-Christian secularist. Allowed to stand, the action by the Veterans Administration, in essence, means that anti-Christian bigotry is now the accepted and approved law of the land.

    Get more information from OneNewsNow at http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/10/fl...ons_for_ve.php


    Take Action

    * Sign the petition to President Bush asking him to rescind the action to ban the recitation now in use. It will immediately go to the White House.
    * Please forward this to your friends and family and urge them to sign the petition.

    Click here to sign the petition now at:
    https://secure.afa.net/afa/activism/...ion.asp?id=270

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  3. #2
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector_Gadget View Post
    Federal government bans flag-folding recitations following one complaint.

    It is time for Christians to say enough is enough

    Click here to sign the petition now at:
    https://secure.afa.net/afa/activism/...ion.asp?id=270

    I agree, it's time for Christians to say 'enough is enough'!
    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

    "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder." -Michael Savage

    GOOD Gun Control is being able to hit your target! -Myself

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    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    The significance of the folds is incorrect:

    http://www.snopes.com/military/flagfold.asp

    Rick

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    Exactly, bandit. There is no inherent "significance" to the folds of the flag - they are "aftermarket" additions and have no real place in the flag-folding ceremony. While I think it's heavy handed to ban them (the recitations should be allowed if the family requests, and if they are not performed by a Government employee, but it should be specified that they are NOT actual, approved recitations, but rather the personal beliefs of the family), they are not a part of the ceremony as prescribed, and really have no place in them if they are not specifically requested.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Distinguished Member Array ArmyCop's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link. I signed & sent & passed on.
    For God, Family and Country!

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    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Exactly, bandit. There is no inherent "significance" to the folds of the flag - they are "aftermarket" additions and have no real place in the flag-folding ceremony. While I think it's heavy handed to ban them (the recitations should be allowed if the family requests, and if they are not performed by a Government employee, but it should be specified that they are NOT actual, approved recitations, but rather the personal beliefs of the family), they are not a part of the ceremony as prescribed, and really have no place in them if they are not specifically requested.
    Agree 100%. If you or your family wants religious mumbo jumbo then you should be able to have it at your request. It should not be assumed the norm becasue contrary to the belief's of the religious right this is a secular nation.

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    Member Array Erich's Avatar
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    I agree, it's time for Christians to say 'enough is enough'!
    What about Jews? Should the VA just leave off that 12th fold for them?

    If a family wants to hear the aftermarket litany about the flag-folding, they should be able to do so. But they're not part of the official ceremony.
    Shot-placement is king. Adequate penetration is queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins.

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    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    The flag is a symbol for all U.S. citizens , Therefore, the Courts are right to block the recitations. Not all people in this country are Jewish or Christian. If the Family would like the recitations to be read by a priest or minister or family member then go ahead.

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    Member Array Inspector_Gadget's Avatar
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    Ever wonder why the "religious" beliefs of atheism are considered the "common denominator", and therefore those are the only viewpoints which become socially or politically acceptable?

    I really didn't intend on starting a holy war. I'm just tired of the voice of the VERY FEW taking away my rights. In this case - the voice of one.

    Many of my relatives, including my son, fight for "God and Country".

    Do they plan on taking that away too?

    It's almost like saying "not everyone here speaks English, so we should just not have language".

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    Inspector, it's not the same at all. You are free to have any and all religious recitations that you would like at your funeral. However, Government employees will not provide them for you during a flag folding ceremony that has no religious connotation or significance. Those "significance" indicators that have been added on specifically enumerate specific religious beliefs (specific enough? ), and attach them to the flag of our nation. This would seem to violate the spirit of the 1st Amendment, no?

    I also serve, but not "God and Country," but rather to "...support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic..."

    Again, have all the recitations, prayers, chants, dances (and I'm not being flip here - I believe you should be able to worship in any way you see fit) that you'd like - just don't claim that they are represented in the flag (or the folding thereof), and don't expect a Government employee to do it for you...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Calling atheism a religion is like calling "clear" a color.

    Nobody is saying you can't believe what you want. The vast majority of atheists also don't have a problem with you using your own money to put up a Menorah or Nativity scene in a public area during the holidays or asking for a reference to God in your state funded funeral service. Those who do object to such things are the lunatic fringe. Religion has its share of lunatic fringes doing things like blowing up abortion clinics, protesting at the funerals of Iraq veterans and dancing with rattlesnakes. We don't profess to state they speak for all religious people so likewise we should not be considerred to all be in the same category as the lunatic fringe of athiests.

    Where we have a problem is when the state dictatates that something is related to God in any form. I would not want a flag folded over my corpse with the recitation that what I did was for the God of anyone. We think it wrong that such an assumption is automatically made and that therefore those who do not believe so are somehow an abberation to our society. The laws of this land were established to keep religion OUT of our legal system while also allowing religion to be practiced, within the laws of the nation, without interference. The athiestic outlook is the natural standing of the law. If someone chooses to want something different there is no problem with them requesting it but no person should be concerned about the gov't assigning some sort of divine relationship to their service to our nation they do not approve of.

    If you want religious significance get a preist and do as you will.

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    Member Array Inspector_Gadget's Avatar
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    Well, in reading over these posts, it would appear that my point has been all-too-well made.

    This, by it self, is small. Just another straw, just another pick. It would seem that most agree that God has no place. That is a shame.

    I never said anything should be shoved in someones face, of forced down someones throat. But, if an "option" is to be, then shouldn't the default fall on tradition?

    I would be much more understanding of "them" saying the recitations are not required, and can be left out on request. Or even included on request.

    Whether or not anyone likes it, the foundations of this country were Christian in origin. Just because someone doesn't agree, doesn't make the facts change. Our flag represents the foundations of the USA. This is no different than taking "under God" out of the pledge, or trying to strip Godly references out of the constitution.

    And, I agree... it is a FRINGE that is doing this, and yet they succeed.

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    "Under God" wasn't in the Pledge until 1954 - 62 years after it was written (by a Christian Socialist author and Baptist minister, who didn't think any reference to God needed to be in there). Even today, it has been without "under God" for longer then it has been with it... The phrase was added in large part due to the efforts of the Knights of Colombus, a decidedly religious organization, rather then a Government one.

    As far as what the "fringe" had done - they have removed extraneous and arguably unconstitutional language from a ceremony that was never officially added by any one - just as it should be. If I want to close my Oath of Office with "So help me Jupiter and Mars and the Queen Godess of the Bug People," should I expect the officer administering the oath to say that? Does the Queen Godess of the Bug People have protected rights as much as the God of Abraham does?

    Religious freedom is just that - freedom. Just because you'd like it if there actually were some religious significance to the flag folding ceremony don't make it so... The Govt. was right to pull it - it should have never been there in the first place.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector_Gadget View Post
    But, if an "option" is to be, then shouldn't the default fall on tradition?
    No, the default should be according to the COTUS.

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    The argument is often made about how "Christian" the founders were yet there is a decided LACK of reference to GOD in the COTUS and a definite separation of all things religious from the workings of the government they built. Given the large amount of Diest and sometimes outright Athiest writings many of those founders left behind it would seem they were, as required by the day, Chirstians in church on Sunday yet Men of the Enlightennment on Monday through Saturday. They may have left some writings praising a "god" in some form but held back generally from embracing any church of man and the rules put forward by it. If they were truly so religious one would have to wonder why any outright critical and heretical statements were left by them...

    Remember these were men who saw religion used as a tool of government and government as tool of religion for a long time. The landscape of old Europe was coated with the blood of one religious faction claiming divine right over another. The world was finally starting to wake up, at least in enlightenned sections, to the evils brought about by religion.

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