This is a discussion on Liberty Dollar raided, silver and gold confiscated within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by tanksoldier It spends like real money... as long as the recipient knows what he is getting. The fact that they are shaped ...
-The Mist (2007)"My God David, We're a Civilized society."
"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
the Govt. is wrong here I think. I dont know much about this company, I didnt know they had Ron Paul coins, but a trade is a trade. Be it a peice of paper with a $20 on it. Or a coin, or a sandwich. Plus, to say that its illegal to use other coins is wrong anyway. People from other countries spend their foreign currency here every day. I think the govt. and federal reserve bank who runs them is waaaaaaaaay overboard on this one. I hope it blows up in their face.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Will have to see about the Money laundering charge.
Other than that if they are valueing it on the worth of gold or you are trading for it due to its value to you then I don't see how that is illegal.
“You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”
― Robert A. Heinlein,
Day II - FBI Raid on the Liberty Dollar
Friday, November 16, 2007: Make no mistake, the FBI and Secret Service raid on the Liberty Dollar at 8:00 AM on Wednesday, was a direct assault against the US Constitution and your right to own and use gold and silver in any way you chose.
I personally spoke to FBI agent Andrew Romagnuolo shortly after he and his gang invaded the peaceful home of the Liberty Dollar. He told me that the raid was related to the US Mint's warning and the beginning of a criminal investigation. This is the first battle of a long war that I intend to win!
Please note the Search Warrant, Seizure Warrant and Agent info is now posted. Click HERE for that info. If that link does not work the URL is: http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/raid.htm.
Also posted is the correspondence between US Senator Bill Nelson of Florida and Edmond C Moy, Director of the US Mint. Of particular interest is Moy's statement that the paper Certificates are not covered by the Title 18, Section 486 and hence legal. So there was no need to raid Sunshine Mint and confiscate all the gold and silver that backs the paper and digital currencies.
No need, unless the government knew their 486 case didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning and needed to expand their case into the never-never land of mail fraud, wire fraud and money laundering as mentioned in the Seizure Warrant. I anticipate being arrested on any one or all of these charges.
But I see my arrest and trial as a golden opportunity to win and return our great country to a value based currency. I sincerely believe that the right creative marketer could orchestrate an effective counter attack and win big. I believe the Liberty Dollar will win and become one of the great institutions in America. I have devoted the past ten year to the Liberty Dollar and am willing to risk a few years in federal prison to vindicate it. Winning is certainly possible, even probable with your help.
Winning will require good, dedicated legal support and your support. First, if you are angry and resent the government's assault on your right to own and use gold as you please then call the agents and express your displeasure of their actions in a polite way. Don't kill the messenger, just tell them they are wrong. Add your voice to this movement.
Second: If you are owed an order and want to get your money back or have paper certificates or digital Liberty Dollars, I urge you to demand redemption or the return of your money by joining the Class Action Lawsuit. Your participation is absolutely critical. If you don't join the CAL you will not get your money back. Please click HERE to sign up for the Class Action Lawsuit. If that link does not work, the URL is:
Third: A Legal Defense Fund will be established very soon. Its purpose is to win the criminal case and get your money back. It will take money to make it successful. So your contribution is also critical. Please don't let the government steal your money.
So if you have an existing order, want to redeem your paper Certificates or digital Liberty Dollars, please join the fight to defend our right to own and use gold as you so chose and sign up for the Class Action Lawsuit. This is the only way you will get your stolen property back.
If you have no standing and want to finally get involved, no problem. There is still $20 million Liberty Dollars in circulation. Simply get some paper Liberty Dollars and sign up for the Class Action Lawsuit. There is still time for all the thick-headed Lewrockwellites, Markskousenites, Dougcaseyites and Agoraites to pull your head out and get 'right' on this important issue.
I regret to inform you that the Liberty Dollar office is now closed. The government boys took everything except for the desks and chairs. We have no stock, no records, no money. I can't even change the phone message because they took the phone manuals. Nor can I answer the thousands of email and calls from a national organization that now numbers into the hundreds of thousands. I am the last man standing. I need your help.
Thank you for your many offers of help. Now is the time for us to help our selves and our great country as it faces the greatest monetary challenge since the Revolutionary War. Buying gold and silver is good for you, but it will not solve our country's problems.
Government requires participation. The problems we have today are because our parents did not participate. Please keep using the Liberty Dollar. Keep the ideals and benefits of real money alive. Gold and silver is going to be very rewarding as the US dollar disintegrates. Please join the Class Action Lawsuit and give something to the Legal Defense Fund when it is established.
But you don't have to wait. Donations can be sent to the old address as the mail is now being forwarded. Of course we will still accept Liberty Dollars, but unfortunately due to the current situation, the attorneys require those dreaded depreciating US dollars.
Please make your check or money order out to me as there is no other bank account and mail it to: Liberty Dollar, 225 N. Stockwell Road. Evansville. Indiana. 47715.
Now is the time to band together and support our fight for value based currency as never before. Now is the time to throw off the yoke of a manipulated monetary/tax system and generate a peaceful and prosperous society.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for your offer of help, prayers and support.
The Liberty Dollar and our great country sincerely needs your support.
God bless you and our great country!
Bernard von NotHaus
Typical FedGov thuggery.
I would love to see multiple, competing currencies in this country. It would take the Feds right out of the inflation game.
As for gold, how many here can tell 100% if the stuff you are getting is gold or some clever & cheap alloy? Are you going to perform a chemical analysis with every transaction? It is too cumbersome and slows down commerce, just imagine the lines at the supermarket nowadays and add the incovenience of trying to figure out if the gold coin is truly gold.
You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
All legitimate concerns.
Back a ways in addition to Gov issued money there were 8000+ private issuers of coins, bingles, tokens and standardized IOUs and yet the people then, without our technological marvels, managed to get through life.
In any event, the point is not to carry around a certain weight of metal. You would have an account backed 100% by whatever commodity or bundle thereof you choose and you would write checks or use your credit card or use notes as issued by your financial institution.
Each institution need not issue their own but rather outsource that to some other vendor.
For those who choose to use metal in their exchanges what I would do as a retailer is have a device that quickly weighs and measures the coin to give me it's true value. This would replace the procedure now where you hand the cash to the cashier and she puts it in her till. Once valuated the coin would drop straight into a strong box underneath the device.
Metal ingots and dust would likely need special attention.
But I am sure that and many other issues could be tackled by entrepreneurs, whose combined efforts would smooth out the process.
So things need not be a huge CF at the market or anywhere else.
The daily spot price for 1 OZ of pure Silver is $14.53 but the Ron Paul 1 OZ Silver coin is minted with a $20.00 denomination value.
So could that coin be redeemed for even more Silver since it's not actually WORTH $20.00 in actual Silver metal content?
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
What I really don't understand is the people here that defend the Constitution and its obvious meaning when it pertains to some parts of it, namely 2A, but have a problem with the clear meaning of:
Article 1 Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
The Liberty currency is illegal and unconstitutional. The supporters should stop and think why they are promoting a foreign currency. Are they trying to destroy our economy in the hopes of going backwards to a 'better time?' The truth is that a little inflation is not a bad thing and in many ways good. Our economy is a strong as it has ever been. We are the wealthiest nation on Earth. Do the Liberty supporters really think our monetary policy does not have a great impact on our economic development? Or have they fooled themselves to think the economy is bad as the MSM and liberals continue to espouse?
I suggest reading Federalist 42 and 44 to gain further understanding of why only the Federal government is given the power to coin and regulate money.
The Liberty Dollars are backed by actual gold and silver (like our currency used to be). So the "value" of LDs are based on the value of the specie in the (monthly audited) warehouse.
In 1998, when Liberty Dollars were introduced. A 1 troy ounce .999 pure silver "medallion" had a face value of $10.. Sometime in the past three years, the spot price of silver rose (and stayed for over 30 days) above a benchmark price (face value - minting costs, etc. [?]) and the 1oz. silver "medallions" were issued at $20. All $10 Liberty Silver Dollars could be re-minted into $20 face value for a small re-minting fee.The spot price of silver is approaching the number that will jump that face value to $50 for a one troy ounce of .999 pure silver piece.
Silver was the choice for the metal for one, because of it's industrial value in medical, photography, electronics areas. It becomes a consumed commodity and is valuable for more than "fair barter".
The founders of the Liberty Dollar are in the throes of a lawsuit against the US Mint for posting a "Consumer Alert" on one of their websites, BUT the US Mint had previously written documents stating the Liberty Dollar is legal for use in private commerce and breaks no counterfeiting laws. All attempts to dismiss the lawsuit were denied and the final hearing date for scheduling the suit was (has now?) past. (coincidentally).
The Liberty Dollar was started as a protest against the US Congress to return the US Economy to a value based money system. NORFED (National Organization For The Repeal Of The Federal Reserve, and The Internal Revenue Service) has been a growing movement, and is only one of over 60 such "private" currencies in the nation. I have not heard if any of the other "private" currencies have been raided as well.
I have no big stake in the organization, but I supported the idea. Currently the Ron Paul Silver Libertys are trading on e-bay for up to 4 times their face value.
How much is a Honus Wagner baseball card, or a mint copy of Spiderman #1 going for? Are either of those backed by "real" money? Nothing, not one single thing in existence, has inherent value. All things are worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for them, and nothing more. If these are barter instuments, why give them a "dollar" value? Why not simply have their weight and purity stamped on them? The market and the individual will determine their value (such as is happening on ebay right now) - there is no need to put "dollar" anywhere near the things. This might go a long way towards keeping the Fed off of their back, no?Currently the Ron Paul Silver Libertys are trading on e-bay for up to 4 times their face value.
A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.
The Feds do not seem to have any problem at all with citizens buying/owning metal bullion.
They are exactly as pgrass101 stated.
Metal rounds and ingots stamped or cast with the exact metal weight and purity.
They (I Guess???) are able to be bought sold and traded because they are bullion and not intended for use as replacement or alternative currency.
I have no personal dog in this fight but, I think that it's all very interesting.
Remember that for a while there it was not legal for Americans to own Gold Coins.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
Personally, I buy gold coins and the American Eagle is legal tender with a face value of $50. Theoretically, I can buy a couple of big turkeys at the grocery store with it. Instead, I can sell it for ~$800. Money's value can and will fluctuate based on market forces. If, however, the denomination of the money changes then chaos and anarchy will reign. The Founders understood that, which is why it is a Constitutional mandate that only Congress can coin and regulate the value of money.
This Liberty dollar debate is really silly. It is clearly illegal. Perhaps the supporters should work within the system if they feel the Constitution should be amended.