Liberty Dollar raided, silver and gold confiscated

This is a discussion on Liberty Dollar raided, silver and gold confiscated within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Disney Dollars are purchased at a 1:1 exchange for Dollars, and are essentially a Disney gift certificate. Completely different thing. Matt...

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Thread: Liberty Dollar raided, silver and gold confiscated

  1. #61
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    Disney Dollars are purchased at a 1:1 exchange for Dollars, and are essentially a Disney gift certificate.

    Completely different thing.

    Matt
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  3. #62
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    Liberty Dollars are not alone

    Here is a list I found (not verified) of "private currency", trading bucks, barter instruments that are being/have been used in the US. I have heard of some of these before.


    * Amesbury Hours Amesbury, Massachusetts
    * Anacostia Hours [1] Mount Rainier, Maryland
    * Area Bucks Palo Alto, California
    * Atlanta Hours Atlanta, Georgia
    * Bainbridge Island Bucks Bainbridge Island, Washington
    * Baltimore Hours [2] Baltimore, Maryland
    * Barter Bucks Indianapolis, Indiana
    * Bay Area Bucks [3] Traverse City, Michigan
    * Berea Bucks Berea, Kentucky
    * Berkeley Barter Network Berkeley, California
    * Berkeley Bread Berkeley, California
    * BerkShares, Southern Berkshires, Massachusetts
    * BloomingHours [4] Bloomington, Indiana
    * Blue Money Brattleboro, Vermont
    * BNI [5] Delaware, Pennsylvania, Maryland, New Jersey
    * Boise Hours Boise, Idaho
    * Brattleboro Hours Chesterfield, New Hampshire
    * Brookings Bucks Brookings, South Dakota
    * Brooklyn Greenbacks Brooklyn, New York
    * Buffalo Hours Buffalo, New York
    * Buffalo Mountain Hours Hardwick, Vermont
    * Bull City Bucks Durham, North Carolina
    * Burlington Bread [6] Burlington, Vermont
    * Butte Bucks Crested Butte, Colorado
    * Cape Anne Dollars Gloucester, Massachusetts
    * Capitol Area Self-Sustaining Hours Albany, New York
    * Carbondale Spuds Carbondale, Colorado
    * Chenango Hours New Berlin, New York
    * Columbia County Hours Philmont, New York
    * Columbia Hours Columbia, Missouri
    * Community Cash Durango, Colorado
    * Cuyahoga Hours Cleveland, Ohio
    * Dillo Hours Austin, Texas
    * Disney Dollar Disneyland and Disneyworld
    * Flagstaff Neighborly Notes [7] Flagstaff, Arizona
    * Floyd Hours Floyd, Virginia
    * Fourth Corner Exchange [8] Pacific Northwest
    * Great Lakes Hours Detroit, Michigan
    * Green Mountain Hours [9] Montpelier, Vermont
    * Greyhound Bucks Taft, Texas
    * Hero dollar Minneapolis, Minnesota
    * High Desert Dollars Prescott, Arizona
    * Hobo Dough South Dakota State University, Brookings, South Dakota
    * Hollandollars Holland, Michigan
    * Houston Hours Houston, Texas
    * Humboldt Hours Eureka, California
    * Humboldt exchange community currency Arcata, California
    * Ithaca Hours Ithaca, New York
    * Kansas City Barter Bucks Kansas City, Missouri
    * Kauai Barter and Trade Network [10] Kilauea, Hawaii
    * Kettle River Hours Kettle Falls, Washington
    * Kitsap Hours Bremerton, Washington
    * Lehigh Valley Barter Hours Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
    * Liberty Dollars [11] Evansville, IN
    * Lopez Island Hours Lopez Island, Washington
    * Madison Hours [12] Madison, Wisconsin
    * Mendocino SEED Fort Bragg, California
    * Middletown Cash Middletown, CT, Wesleyan University
    * Milwaukee Hours Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    * Missoula Hours Missoula, Montana
    * Mo' Money [13] New Orleans, Louisiana
    * Mountain Money [14] Mars Hill, North Carolina
    * NOCO Hours [15]Fort Collins, Greeley, and Loveland, Colorado
    * North Fork Helping Hands Paonia, Colorado
    * PDXhours Portland, Oregon
    * P.E.N. Neighborhood Exchange Takoma Park, Maryland
    * Plenty [16] Carrboro, North Carolina
    * Portage Hours Kent, Ohio
    * REAL Dollars [17] Lawrence, Kansas
    * RiverHOURS [18]Columbia River Gorge, USA
    * San Luis Obispo Hours San Luis Obispo, California
    * Sand Dollars Bolinas, California
    * Santa Barbara Hours Santa Barbara, California
    * Santa Fe Hours Santa Fe, New Mexico
    * Santa Monica Hours Santa Monica, California
    * Sequoia Hours Garberville, California
    * Simply Hours Columbus, Ohio
    * Skagit Dollars Mount Vernon, Washington
    * Sonoma County Community Cash Santa Rosa, California
    * Stoneridge Hours Kerhonkson, New York
    * Summit Hours Akron, Ohio
    * Thread City Bread Willimantic, Connecticut
    * Time Bucks [19] Seattle, Washington
    * Tulsa Hours Tulsa, Oklahoma
    * Ukiah Hours [20] Ukiah, California
    * Valley Dollars Greenfield, Massachusetts
    * Waldo Hours Unity, Maine
    * Wash Bucks Sioux City, Iowa
    * Wooster Hours Apple Creek, Ohio

  4. #63
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    Here's the problem with the list. ALL of them (as far as I can tell) except one (guess which one?) are limited to a specific town, event, or occasion, and all are only exchangeable for a structured list of products/services. They are not marketed as being useful anywhere, as replacing/supplementing Government issued notes, and so forth. These are, simply put, NOT THE SAME THINGS AT ALL. No one issuing Missoula Hours claims that you can buy a TV in Tallahassee, or even exchange them for Wooster Hours in Sioux City.

    By putting a face value on them and claiming that they are good for ALL purchases, EVERYWHERE, they are operating well outside the scope of these other "currencies." Surely, as a group that prides ourselves on looking at issues logically and eschewing the emotion-based arguments of the antis, we can see the difference.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  5. #64
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    That someone would actually come out with a currency, any currency that is actually backed by Gold or Silver...

    OMG....the SHAME! the Humanity !

    I don't think that its the money that the all powerful, ever present Federal Government thinks is the threat to their mighty well being...

    its the principal of the thing.

    It completely flies in the face of the ever encroaching "control" over everything that they seek. Now how in the heck, could we expect every man,woman and child to receive a mark on their hand or forehead so that they could buy or sell, if we still had a currency that was backed by Gold or Silver that actually had value?
    The answer is...we couldn't.

    Therefore the Federal Government in all of its power and glory could not allow such a thing. It simply does not fit into its plan,in its great quest to centralize us into a One World Governement, with one money, and Central Bank where society becomes cashless and every single transaction becomes electronic.

    Its not about law.Its not about legal or illegal.
    It just one more thing in the long list of things that is about Control

    Its money control. Plain and simple.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  6. #65
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    Um..... OK.

    Who would control the money, then? Crazy Eddies Emporium of Gen-u-wine Dineiro? Me?

    Gold had no value. Silver has no value. NOTHING has value, outside of what someone else is willing to pay for it. All these arguments are completely besides the point...and the point is this:

    If we barter, we trade one thing for another. If we all agree on the value of the two things, we're good. All "fiat" money does is allow us to collectively agree on the value of one, easy to transport, identify, and maintain item, then trade that for everything else. Sorry, I trust the Government (and it pains me to even put those four words in that order) a lot more than I trust Joe-Bob's Bullion Base....
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  7. #66
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    If we barter, we trade one thing for another. If we all agree on the value of the two things, we're good. All "fiat" money does is allow us to collectively agree on the value of one, easy to transport, identify, and maintain item, then trade that for everything else. Sorry, I trust the Government (and it pains me to even put those four words in that order) a lot more than I trust Joe-Bob's Bullion Base....
    Gold and Silver were the standard used. The original money used was a "promissory note" that used to say that the "same amount of gold or silver was payable on demand to the bearer of the note". I still got some of the Silver Certificates stashed around here somewhere.It was printed right on it.

    Getting us off of the gold standard allowed the Federal Gov. to print as much money as it wanted for whatever purpose it wanted. Got alot of debt? No problem, print more money.

    When I was a kid, I could buy a pair of Levi's jeans for 8 dollars a pair. Same thing today is 45 bucks because of inflation.

    Of course, having your money based on no standard allows those in power to print as much as they want for any reason. The more they do that, the less your money is worth.

    Actually, I trust Joe Bobs bullion base a heck of lot more than I trust the Government for the simple reason that Joe Bob is held accountable for his actions. Joe Bob has to treat it as a business. The Federal Government doesn't have to act like a business, therefore it has an extremely poor record of money management.

    Who holds the Government accountable? I don't mean in theory or how its suppose to work, I mean in reality how it actually works.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  8. #67
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    You hit it right on target HotGuns. If everything goes South, canned Spam or ammo may be the currency of the day. But gold and silver have historically been the "coin of the realm".

    The Golden Rule: He who controls the gold, rules.

  9. #68
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    That someone would actually come out with a currency, any currency that is actually backed by Gold or Silver...

    OMG....the SHAME! the Humanity !

    I don't think that its the money that the all powerful, ever present Federal Government thinks is the threat to their mighty well being...

    Just curious, but do you think the section of the Constitution that empowers Congress to regulate money should be repealed? Do you think the Second Amendment should be respected? Then why ignore another part just because you disagree with it? In my mind, either you support and uphold the Constitution or you do not.

    Therefore the Federal Government in all of its power and glory could not allow such a thing. It simply does not fit into its plan...,in its great quest to centralize us into a One World Governement, with one money, and Central Bank where society becomes cashless and every single transaction becomes electronic.

    Its not about law.Its not about legal or illegal.
    It just one more thing in the long list of things that is about Control

    Its money control. Plain and simple.
    No, it's about the Constitution. Plain and simple.

  10. #69
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Gold and Silver were the standard used. The original money used was a "promissory note" that used to say that the "same amount of gold or silver was payable on demand to the bearer of the note". I still got some of the Silver Certificates stashed around here somewhere.It was printed right on it.
    The original money was coins, not paper currency. The Founders kw very well the dangers of fiat currency, whether they are 'backed' by gold or not.

    Getting us off of the gold standard allowed the Federal Gov. to print as much money as it wanted for whatever purpose it wanted. Got alot of debt? No problem, print more money.
    National debt is very different than personal debt. That has been proven despite the doom scenarios espoused when we went off the gold standard in the early '70s. Our economy continues to be the best in the world, with full employment and opportunities in virtually every sector for those ambitious and hard working enough to avail themselves of the myriad possibilities.

    When I was a kid, I could buy a pair of Levi's jeans for 8 dollars a pair. Same thing today is 45 bucks because of inflation.

    Of course, having your money based on no standard allows those in power to print as much as they want for any reason. The more they do that, the less your money is worth.
    Yes, but the less money is worth the more money you make. Yes, it penalizes savings, which is why a tolerable inflation rate is the goal for economic stability.

    Actually, I trust Joe Bobs bullion base a heck of lot more than I trust the Government for the simple reason that Joe Bob is held accountable for his actions. Joe Bob has to treat it as a business. The Federal Government doesn't have to act like a business, therefore it has an extremely poor record of money management.
    And who will prevent counterfeiting Joe Bob's money? There are reasons that money must be controlled by the government. And why there are laws an penalties against uttering coins like Liberty dollars.

    Who holds the Government accountable? I don't mean in theory or how its suppose to work, I mean in reality how it actually works.
    The people hold the government accountable because we are the government in America.
    Last edited by SelfDefense; November 23rd, 2007 at 05:05 PM. Reason: spelling (thanks for fixing the uote)

  11. #70
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    Just curious, but do you think the section of the Constitution that empowers Congress to regulate money should be repealed?
    Repealed? No. I'd just be happy if in fact Congress did what they were supposed to.
    But they don't. That authority was given to the Federal Reserve....a privately owned corporation with a sitting board of stockholders. The President appoints the Chairman of the Federal Reserve.

    Since the Fed, controls the money that Congress appropriates, you tell me, who exactly is in Control? The Congress or the people that make and control the money?

    Do you think the Second Amendment should be respected?
    Absolutely.
    But is it respected by or ignored by some that don't like it?
    How about Washington DC...where it is illegal to own a handgun? How about NYC, ?. Doe the Constitution mean the same thing there that it does in say Little Rock, Arkansas? How about Chicago ?
    San Francisco, where the city council has tried conveniently to ignore that pesky little provision repeatedly and outlaw private ownership of guns in their city?

    Then why ignore another part just because you disagree with it?
    Ignore? Tell me how exactly I am ignoring it? I have the same green paper in my wallet that you do. How can I ignore it?

    In my mind, either you support and uphold the Constitution or you do not.
    I do support the Constitution 100 percent. How about just following it to the letter and going away with all of the extra baggage that has been added to law in this country? How about requiring our Congressmen, Senators and even Presidents to follow it...just it.

    I do not support all of the extra curricular activity that is Unconstitutional that binds all of us.

    No, it's about the Constitution. Plain and simple.

    That is EXACTLY what it is about.

    You need to exercises you mind a bit and do some research about the Federal Reserve and why we taken off of the Gold Standard, before you decide what is right and what is wrong and what is Constitutional or Unconstitutional.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  12. #71
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    The people hold the government accountable because we are the government in America.
    Exactly.
    and since we are all working to pay half of our wages in taxes and raise familys, those in power pretty much do as they please because as grand as that statement is, we the people are so preoccipied with our lives they use it to their great advantage.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Repealed? No. I'd just be happy if in fact Congress did what they were supposed to.
    But they don't. That authority was given to the Federal Reserve....a privately owned corporation with a sitting board of stockholders. The President appoints the Chairman of the Federal Reserve.

    Since the Fed, controls the money that Congress appropriates, you tell me, who exactly is in Control? The Congress or the people that make and control the money?


    Absolutely.
    But is it respected by or ignored by some that don't like it?
    How about Washington DC...where it is illegal to own a handgun? How about NYC, ?. Doe the Constitution mean the same thing there that it does in say Little Rock, Arkansas? How about Chicago ?
    San Francisco, where the city council has tried conveniently to ignore that pesky little provision repeatedly and outlaw private ownership of guns in their city?



    Ignore? Tell me how exactly I am ignoring it? I have the same green paper in my wallet that you do. How can I ignore it?



    I do support the Constitution 100 percent. How about just following it to the letter and going away with all of the extra baggage that has been added to law in this country? How about requiring our Congressmen, Senators and even Presidents to follow it...just it.

    I do not support all of the extra curricular activity that is Unconstitutional that binds all of us.

    No, it's about the Constitution. Plain and simple.

    That is EXACTLY what it is about.

    You need to exercises you mind a bit and do some research about the Federal Reserve and why we taken off of the Gold Standard, before you decide what is right and what is wrong and what is Constitutional or Unconstitutional.
    I do not disagree with most of what you wrote. I have already opined that the Federal Reserve is unconsitutional and paper money is also unconstitutional. My argument is simply that the Liberty dollar is clearly illegal and unconstitutional.

    The bottom line is you do not correct unconstitutional behavior with more unconstitutional behavior. That is anarchy.

    As far as the anti-gun states, all the People have to do is elect representatives that will overturn those unconstituional laws. Relying on the Court (designed to be the weakest branch of government) is foolhardy. We have the power if the People would ony realize how strong we are.

    The fact remains that the government does not control the people but rather the people control the government.

  14. #73
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    My argument is simply that the Liberty dollar is clearly illegal and unconstitutional.
    Why?

    The Constitution gives authority to Congress to make money as a means of Public barter.

    Is does not address coining money for private use..it only says that Private money shall not become the preferred currency of public transaction.On the paper money it states that "this note is legal tender for all uses, public or private."

    When this country was founded each and every state had it owns system of money. When we became a nation, a common system of money was needed, a national money was established.

    I have no problem with a "private" money being in place,as long as it doesn't become the preferred exchange of currency which could really hose things up.

    Did the powers that be see this as a serious attempt to overthrow their system of currency" Somehow I doubt it. Like I said before, its the principal of the thing,or anything other thing that could result in just a little bit of loss of control will be dealt with, with an iron fist and that is exactly what is happening here.

    We have the power if the People would only realize how strong we are.
    Sounds great...but most of them are educated in public schools that wont fail anyone because it may damage their self esteem. My wife has kids in the 9th grade that cant even read and they will graduate from school with a high school diploma that they cant read. Do we expect these people to understand what "power" they yield over the government? Most of them cant even spell government.

    I'd be happy if I could get a simple take out order at Wendy's right. Somehow the idea of the power being vested in the "people "doesn't give me a warm fuzzy. I think its a stretch to think that someone that is very challenged by being able to remember to put cheese on a chicken sandwich that they charged me for is going to be able to understand the concept that the "power" of government resides in is supposed to be for the people, by for the people and of the people.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  15. #74
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    Silver Certificate
    This Certifies That There Is On Deposit In The Treasury Of
    The United States Of America
    Five Dollars
    In Silver Payable To The Bearer On Demand


    This is what the US used to issue.
    Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Micky Bucks and Skunk Fair tokens aren't the same thing, and you guys must know that... They are NOT barter instruments, in that they have no claimed value outside other than to the entities that produced them. If you only used Liberty Dollars to buy stuff at the Liberty Dollar store, that would be one thing, but the biggest claim of the company is that these are "real" money, and have value everywhere, for everything.

    Again, I'm not saying that "barter instruments" are a bad thing on the whole, just that by printing/stamping a face value on the things, you are changing them from barter instruments into "fiat" money - the very devl that the company claims to despise so much...
    Liberty dollars have no value except what people are willing to accept for them. Sounds exactly like Disney Bucks to me... They just happen to be made out of metals that some people find valuable as well.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

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