My Turn To Rant: Irresponsible Carriers

This is a discussion on My Turn To Rant: Irresponsible Carriers within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; First and foremost, let me clear about this, this thread is not intended to be a discussion on the appropriateness of open carry or a ...

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Thread: My Turn To Rant: Irresponsible Carriers

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    VIP Member Array BigEFan's Avatar
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    My Turn To Rant: Irresponsible Carriers

    First and foremost, let me clear about this, this thread is not intended to be a discussion on the appropriateness of open carry or a debate about open carry vs conceal carry. Each has their place and I prefer to leave it at that.

    What really drives me mad are people who carry and are irresponsible about it. I think, as one who carries, that my first obligation is to ensure that an innocent person is not hurt with my gun. While I am not an LEO I know for a fact that LEO's, while in the academy, are taught weapon retention techniques, largely because their life and the lives of others may come down to their ability to keep their weapon away from the BG.

    Open carry or concealed carry makes no difference to me, if you strap a gun on in the morning you need to make darn sure it is still there at the end of the day. Cops practice it, security guards and other open carriers should. And I think concealed carriers should too.

    This brings me to a situation that has been bugging the hell out of me at work. I work in a government building. The powers that be have decided that it is a good idea to have a Security Guard in or around the building 24/7. Not necessarily a bad idea, in fact I support this additional level of protection. Some of the guards are authorized to carry weapons, some are not. Obviously the ones who do, must open carry. One of the Guards who carries is a heck of nice guy with only a little bit of the wannabe cop attitude. For the sake of this story lets name him John.

    While John is a nice guy I am almost certain that one day he is going to get himself, one of my coworkers or myself killed. Sitting on John's right hip is a semi auto handgun, which in and of itself is not an issue. The issue is he practices absolutely no Situational Awareness techniques. While I never would, I am nearly 100% confident that I could walk up to him, take his gun and use it on him and anyone else in the area and there is not a darn thing he could do about it, and that scares me everytime I see him.

    For a while I thought I was being overly sensitive about the issue. Then I decided to see just how bad his SA was. On a daily basis I attempt to walk up behind John and tap him on his right shoulder. As of today, I think I am at about 90% successful at tapping him on the shoulder before he knows I am there. John stands in locations where it is common for people to walk up behind him. He usually stands with his arms crossed or his weak hand is in his pocket while he is smoking a cigarette in his gun hand.

    I've tried to hint to him that he shouldn't allow people to sneak up on him but he apparently sees my little experiment as a game. In fact he is so interested in me that now anybody but me could probably grab his gun without hassle.

    This whole situation just rubs me the wrong way. Am I out of line here or is the Guard putting all of us at risk?
    Lex et Libertas — Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus, et Fidelis!

    "Not only do the people who put their lives on the line to protect the rest of us deserve better, we all deserve better than to have our own security undermined by those who undermine law enforcement." -Thomas Sowell

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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigEFan View Post
    First and foremost, let me clear about
    This whole situation just rubs me the wrong way. Am I out of line here or is the Guard putting all of us at risk?
    You are not out of line at all and I can't begin to tell you how many times I have observed and been made uncomfortable by the same thing.

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    I have seen LEOs who present the target. A lot of them, even though taught retention, may not pay as close attention as they should.

    HOWEVER..........Outside of the movies.......How many instances have you ever heard of someone walking up to an armed LEO or security & taking their weapon? The only ones I've heard of are struggles by LEOs with BGs who are resisting arrest.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

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    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    I was at a Best Buy a couple days ago. Saw a guy I thought was a rent-a-cop---black 'tactical' cargos and boots; generic beige shirt; quilted black vest (hopefully armored!); ball cap. I eventually noticed the local PD logo on his sleeve.

    Now, the good news is he had a serious looking retention holster for his sidearm (thing looked like a damned safe hanging off his hip ), and I decided I actually wanted to get a close up look at this holster. Now, I know that scoping a cop's weapon is a Big Time Indicator of possible nefariousness, so I figured I wouldn't get that close up.

    Well, I was wrong. By the time he had called his buddy over and they were both deeply engrossed in the merits of possibly buying Super Bad on high-def DVD, I was standing pretty much right behind them, getting a good look at the holsters, and neither of them so much as glanced at their six. When I wandered away neither of them showed me the least bit of attention, indicating to me they had no idea somebody standing two feet behind them had been looking over their equipment.

    *sigh* I hope the holsters were as good as they looked.

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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    You're not out of line in any way here. I've had the same perceptions about airport security guards, armored car carriers, and the like. I guess I'll sum it up like this. It's more easily recognizable when someone is carrying openly. One tends to scrutinize the individual and assess their 'worthiness' to accept such responsibilities. Basic security guards are more than likely mandated through a company contract, or by simply reducing insurance costs. They may or may not in fact ease the general public's mind with their presence, and being armed. Truth is---you and you alone are the only one who can protect yourself. While the risks you perceive are real (which they are), you are relying too much on the security guard's abilities. Those of us that have the realization of what's going on around us constantly, and view our perimeter, and our 'space', and are always aware of our surroundings or anything out of the ordinary, now take upon ourselves to worry about those people who would put us more at risk than a perpetrator of a crime. I guess we must be all that more vigilant, and prepared for what may transpire due to the ineptness of others. Be secure in knowing that 'John' is likely saving your company thousands of dollars a year in insurance costs so they can give you a nice raise come first of the year. You deserve a raise since you've taken on a new burden.

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    I remember standing in line at a Wendy's inside a convenience store in Hope, Arkansas behind a deputy who was armed with a 2-inch S&W Model 36 in an oversized belt holster with no retention whatsoever. The revolver was just wallowing around in that holster. I studied the revolver and holster as I stood behind him and determined that I could have filtched it, returned to my car and continued on my way up I-30 and he'd never known.

    I could have used it to plug the signs on the interstate commemorating Hope as "the boyhood home of Bill Clinton" like everyone else seems to do.

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    VIP Member Array BigEFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Y While the risks you perceive are real (which they are), you are relying too much on the security guard's abilities.
    No, actually I have no false sense of their abilities and nor do I count on them.

    I would settle for them not being an additional liability which when you look at "JOHN" and his techniques, he becomes a liability or a hindrance to my overall security. At that is what irks me. He is supposed to be helpful if he is ever needed and the plain fact of the matter is I have to watch him as much as I do bad guys.
    Lex et Libertas — Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus, et Fidelis!

    "Not only do the people who put their lives on the line to protect the rest of us deserve better, we all deserve better than to have our own security undermined by those who undermine law enforcement." -Thomas Sowell

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    Member Array JeffLrrp's Avatar
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    Man. That ticks me off.

    Even when I was not of age, I always kept my eyes and ears open, and on nights where I carried my Ka-Bar TDI (concealed, of course), I would always keep my strong hand to my side in order to prevent improperly placed extremities from grazing it or grabbing for it. When I carry now for my security job (SA XD 9mm at 230 or 300 o'clock), I always keep my gun hand close by. I stand gun side away from others, and if possible keep my back to walls or other immovable objects that people cant sneak around.
    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . .
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    Member Array JeffLrrp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    I have seen LEOs who present the target. A lot of them, even though taught retention, may not pay as close attention as they should.

    HOWEVER..........Outside of the movies.......How many instances have you ever heard of someone walking up to an armed LEO or security & taking their weapon? The only ones I've heard of are struggles by LEOs with BGs who are resisting arrest.
    It only takes one time . . .
    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . .
    ----- Thomas Jefferson

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    Ex Member Array Creature's Avatar
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    You would have to reach down the front of my pants to get to my gun!

    (Sorry,...couldn't resist. I carry IWB at the 1 o'clock in a deep concealment holster.)

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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Those of us that have the realization of what's going on around us constantly, and view our perimeter, and our 'space', and are always aware of our surroundings or anything out of the ordinary, now take upon ourselves to worry about those people who would put us more at risk than a perpetrator of a crime. I guess we must be all that more vigilant, and prepared for what may transpire due to the ineptness of others.
    No, actually I have no false sense of their abilities and nor do I count on them.

    I would settle for them not being an additional liability which when you look at "JOHN" and his techniques, he becomes a liability or a hindrance to my overall security. At that is what irks me. He is supposed to be helpful if he is ever needed and the plain fact of the matter is I have to watch him as much as I do bad guys.
    My sentiments exactly. Who's supposition is it? (does that equal assumption?) I guess now, you'll have to step up to the task at hand. Much as we would both like to deny the facts.

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    That is IMO where ''responsible'' carry ceases - not only could the firearm possibly be snatched and used on him - but a good few others also.

    Situational awareness is (and has to be) a component part of carry - open or concealed. Not only do we wish to avoid trouble but sure as heck, we want to retain our means of defence.

    He needs some sort of ''adjustment'' - and hopefully a mild one before he ends up on the wrong end of his gun perhaps.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Senior Member Array ridurall's Avatar
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    You bring up an excellent point BigEFan. We were trail riding and camping with our horses a little over a month ago with one of the local Chiefs of Police and about 35, 4H kids, families and some parents. His carry gun was a Freedom Arms .22 with an extended grip and a little metal clip to hold it in his back pocket. Butt of the gun was visible where anyone could grab it. First the freedom Arms .22 is not what I recommend for any LE to carry off duty. Much less a Chief or even civilian CCW holder. I suppose it's better then nothing but not much better. I look upon it as my duty to help protect the kids and no one could see my Sig .40 under my bibs but I could get to it instantly. Aside from that he is a very nice guy, good Chief and exceptionally smart. I know that sounds like an oxymoron but he is fun to camp with. Has some of the best stupid crook stories for telling around a camp fire.
    Life member NRA since 1983
    I carry a Kimber Ultra Carry II in a Crossbreed SuperTuck. My wife carries a Walther PPS .40 w/Crossbreed holster.

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    VIP Member Array BigEFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridurall View Post
    Has some of the best stupid crook stories for telling around a camp fire.
    At last someone found some use for a Chief of Police.

    j/k guys. I know our local chief and I love to poke fun at him. they really are desk jockeys and most of them know it so the kind hearted harassment is usually welcome.
    Lex et Libertas — Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus, et Fidelis!

    "Not only do the people who put their lives on the line to protect the rest of us deserve better, we all deserve better than to have our own security undermined by those who undermine law enforcement." -Thomas Sowell

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    VIP Member Array swiftyjuan's Avatar
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    I would like to respectfully point out that I work in the same building as BigEFan, my name is John, I am not a security guard. The John BigE is referring to is a nice guy, but totally unaware!
    John
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