Time to break out the tinfoil hats. - Page 3

Time to break out the tinfoil hats.

This is a discussion on Time to break out the tinfoil hats. within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by SelfDefense You are correct. I think it is important to prevent another terrorist attack. Some are less concerned than I am. I ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    You are correct. I think it is important to prevent another terrorist attack. Some are less concerned than I am.

    I hear a lot of people that believe their civil rights are being trampled, as you do. However, not a single one has presented evidence that their rights ave been violated in any way. The slippery slope argument is a logic flaw.

    Our representatives decided that monitoring enemy communications is important so appropriate legislation was passed. Remember, we are the government.

    Personally, I think disclosing this type of intelligence operation to the general public is a huge mistake.

    I agree it is important to stop terrorist attacks. They've one end in mind. The destruction of the west, all religions but their own, and in the end, their own dominance of the world.

    I also agree the monitoring of enemy communications is important. In this day and time with the onset of computer technology and throw away cell phones it is a difficult task. In respect to, Remember we are the government, that's debatable. There are too many uneducated, uninformed and gullible voters voting and too many politicians that regard their desires and greed more than the good of the country and it's people.

    I also agree that too often important intelligence methods are revealed to the public for our own good. Sometimes it is 'leaked' by our own government officials. This I believe borders on treason.

    Where our opinions differ greatly is in your statement:
    I hear a lot of people that believe their civil rights are being trampled, as you do. However, not a single one has presented evidence that their rights ave been violated in any way. The slippery slope argument is a logic flaw.
    I used to believe also that the Patriot Act was a necessity, that we needed it to fight terrorism. That was until I learned more about it. They have gone way overboard.
    The 'Patriot Act' was not even read by those that voted it into law before they voted. It is full of instances that contradict our Constitution. Dem. congressman john conyers even admits he (they) don't read bills before they vote on them.
    You state "that not one single person has presented evidence that their rights have been violated in any way".
    The Patriot Act gives so much power to the Feds that violate our Constitutional rights that [if one is investigated by the feds] and they speak about it, whether it is to the press, their lawyer, their wife or even to a judge, then they've commited a Felony. That's even IF they find out they've been or are being investigated because the Act gives Feds the right to write their own search warrants. This is just one instance that is atrocious.

    I'll link below one or two YouTubes for you to look at. While I do not endorse Napolitanos' ending remarks, he might to be too far off base. I say this because we must never show our tail in the face of the enemy. This only shows weakness. (You'll know what I mean by that when you hear who he endorses. The endorsee has a plan of immediate withdrawal and that is the one big problem I have with him.) Take a few minutes and watch at least the first one.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SU0z...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-36N...eature=related
    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

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  2. #32
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P7fanatic View Post
    The 'Patriot Act' was not even read by those that voted it into law before they voted. It is full of instances that contradict our Constitution. Dem. congressman john conyers even admits he (they) don't read bills before they vote on them.
    Well, I would have no problem with Conyers resigning as he admits he does not perform his responsibilities. If I learned that my representatives and Senators failed to read legislaion they voted on, I would not vote for that candidate. We have term limits in America. They occur every two, four, and six years.

    You state "that not one single person has presented evidence that their rights have been violated in any way".
    The Patriot Act gives so much power to the Feds that violate our Constitutional rights that [if one is investigated by the feds] and they speak about it, whether it is to the press, their lawyer, their wife or even to a judge, then they've commited a Felony. That's even IF they find out they've been or are being investigated because the Act gives Feds the right to write their own search warrants. This is just one instance that is atrocious.
    Yes, I understand that many powers COULD be used against innocent citizens. The fact is they have not been. If they are, then we can repeal them. Until then they are a strong tool used against the enemy. Again, there are no examples of this being used against innocent Americans. I understand the concerns but when we deem a law to be harmful we can change it. Don't like the 18th Amendment? Pass the 21st.

    The Patriot Act has provided necessary and important tools to help Homeland Security thwart enemy attacks. We have not had any enemy attacks. We have not lost our liberty in the process. I think the results make it a great success.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    I'll take a stab at that RS...how about phone line tapping without a warrant for starters?

    I suggest reading the PA in its entirity...big brother is watching.

    Rick
    You have personally 'experienced' phone tapping?
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  4. #34
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Well, I would have no problem with Conyers resigning as he admits he does not perform his responsibilities. If I learned that my representatives and Senators failed to read legislaion they voted on, I would not vote for that candidate. We have term limits in America. They occur every two, four, and six years.

    Yes, I understand that many powers COULD be used against innocent citizens. The fact is they have not been. If they are, then we can repeal them. Until then they are a strong tool used against the enemy. Again, there are no examples of this being used against innocent Americans. I understand the concerns but when we deem a law to be harmful we can change it. Don't like the 18th Amendment? Pass the 21st.

    The Patriot Act has provided necessary and important tools to help Homeland Security thwart enemy attacks. We have not had any enemy attacks. We have not lost our liberty in the process. I think the results make it a great success.

    If I learned that my representatives and Senators failed to read legislaion they voted on, I would not vote for that candidate.

    That bill was not on the floor long enough for anyone to read it before voting. Plenty others have addmitted to not knowing all that was in it. This is a more common practice than you think a I too think it is inexcusable. Why do you think they fit all those attachments and pork in right before a vote. Pelosi has demanded more than once this year for premature votes. It's not new.

    Yes, I understand that many powers COULD be used against innocent citizens. The fact is they have not been.
    Again, there are no examples of this being used against innocent Americans.


    Why do you say they have not been. They have been used against innocent Americans. Even the Feds have admitted it.
    Did you watch the 2nd video???


    We have not lost our liberty in the process.

    That is debatable and I would dissagree. I used to blindly believe it was all necessary also. But it is true we haven't had any more 'terrorist attacks' since 911.


    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

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  5. #35
    Member Array LMarshall73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    You have personally 'experienced' phone tapping?
    Since no warrant is issued, how would anyone of us possibly know? The founding father's intent was to limit the powers of the government. They never established boundaries on individual rights, knowing full well that rights granted by government could be taken away. The constitution does not grant us our rights as Americans, it recognizes that our rights are inherently present in nature and that no law of man can superscede them.

    Since you've been around a while, I have a question for you. Prior to the widespread use of the internet, how informed were people of legislation being presented in D.C.? Were proposed bills and ammendments posted in local newspapers for the review of the general public? I am asking out of genuine curiosity, and my point is this:

    If the people are not made fully aware of the decisions their representatives are making, what is to stop the representatives from making decisions to benefit only them?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMarshall73 View Post
    Since no warrant is issued, how would anyone of us possibly know? The founding father's intent was to limit the powers of the government. They never established boundaries on individual rights, knowing full well that rights granted by government could be taken away. The constitution does not grant us our rights as Americans, it recognizes that our rights are inherently present in nature and that no law of man can superscede them.

    Since you've been around a while, I have a question for you. Prior to the widespread use of the internet, how informed were people of legislation being presented in D.C.? Were proposed bills and ammendments posted in local newspapers for the review of the general public? I am asking out of genuine curiosity, and my point is this:

    If the people are not made fully aware of the decisions their representatives are making, what is to stop the representatives from making decisions to benefit only them?
    This is already done on a regular basis...legislators have many privileges no other Americans can have (usually). Good salaries, superb retirement, no Social Security...freedom from arrest for lots of things (on their way to, from, and while at [work?])...are a few of many examples.

    They usually deprive themselves of having to follow many of the laws they make for us.

    I could care less about the gov't listening to my phone calls...they did for 7 years when I lived in the Aleutian Islands, a military base...never thought twice about it.

    Our democracy, which I do appreciate, is in pretty bad shape. It's too sick to get better, and too big to die...we're all headed for a huge disaster.

    There are worse things to worry about...
    Because of all the printed money the gov't makes to pay bills, we could all be broke overnight...now that could be a big SHTF moment that IS something to worry about.

    The crooked U.N. which we pay (major $$$) into for little or no return?...that could be a big problem down the line, too.

    I'm a law-abiding citizen, I have no reason to fear what I can't change...unless we have a huge revolt...you're not going to change much either.

    We have NO IDEA what our government is REALLY up to...and I don't lay awake at night worrying about it. What happens, happens!

    But respectfully, thanks for asking.

    By the way, I see you have a M/C...so do I...I live in Gainesville...If you ever want to take a ride away from the coast, I'll ride towards the coast and meet for a lunch...always willing to ride my Harley...
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  7. #37
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    For those of you who need a tin foil beanie, here is the definitive site for making your own.


    Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie

    Take a few minutes to check out the testimonials and you will laugh your butt off.
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  8. #38
    Ex Member Array spy1's Avatar
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    "FBI's Snooping Broke Rules" - http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/03/09/se...ers/index.html

    "Why Did they torture Jose Padilla?" http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/...n/16219278.htm
    http://cryptome.org/padilla/padilla-695-6.htm

    "Held four years without charges" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6742535.stm

    "CIA Flying Suspects to torture?"
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in678155.shtml

    Think that because most of these people were foreign nationals that it can't happen to you? Think again - the President can declare anyone an "enemy combatant" - just on his own say-so without having to prove a thing or provide any evidence.

    "No-Fly" list problems?
    http://www.wired.com/politics/securi.../07/watchlists
    http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general...s20061006.html
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,218483,00.html

    Watchlist "quotas"? http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...07/detail.html

    "Old-line Republican warns 'something's in the works' to trigger a police state" http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Oldlin...orks_0719.html

    "FBI says it has files on advocacy groups" http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/17/fbi.monitoring.ap/

    "Feds ramp up spying on journalists, other Americans" http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artma...cle_7678.shtml

    "Is the Pentagon Spying on Americans?" http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10454316/

    I could go on - or, you could just go to this forum and start reading anywhere: http://forums.maddoktor2.com/index.php?showforum=34

    BTW - When are you going to get over this idiotic demand for people to prove that they themselves have been spied upon or had their rights violated? It is so blazingly apparent that there's no way for any of us to do that because the government won't release the names!!!

    How hard is that for you to understand? (I realize that you don't want to understand it because it destroys your entire "argument" to the contrary). Pete

  9. #39
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spy1 View Post
    "FBI's Snooping Broke Rules" - http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/03/09/se...ers/index.html

    "Why Did they torture Jose Padilla?" http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/...n/16219278.htm
    http://cryptome.org/padilla/padilla-695-6.htm

    "Held four years without charges" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6742535.stm

    "CIA Flying Suspects to torture?"
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in678155.shtml

    Think that because most of these people were foreign nationals that it can't happen to you? Think again - the President can declare anyone an "enemy combatant" - just on his own say-so without having to prove a thing or provide any evidence.

    "No-Fly" list problems?
    http://www.wired.com/politics/securi.../07/watchlists
    http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general...s20061006.html
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,218483,00.html

    Watchlist "quotas"? http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...07/detail.html

    "Old-line Republican warns 'something's in the works' to trigger a police state" http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Oldlin...orks_0719.html

    "FBI says it has files on advocacy groups" http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/17/fbi.monitoring.ap/

    "Feds ramp up spying on journalists, other Americans" http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artma...cle_7678.shtml

    "Is the Pentagon Spying on Americans?" http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10454316/

    I could go on - or, you could just go to this forum and start reading anywhere: http://forums.maddoktor2.com/index.php?showforum=34

    BTW - When are you going to get over this idiotic demand for people to prove that they themselves have been spied upon or had their rights violated? It is so blazingly apparent that there's no way for any of us to do that because the government won't release the names!!!

    How hard is that for you to understand? (I realize that you don't want to understand it because it destroys your entire "argument" to the contrary). Pete

    Do you really spend so much time reading lies, propaganda and conspiracy theories? Amusingly, one of the links is the same one that is spreading the lie that Bush said that the Constitution is 'just a God damn piece of paper.' I'm certain you believe that, too!

    Do you also believe that government is secretly hiding the UFO evidence? Aliens crashed at Roswell, right?

    Here is a very good web site for you to feed your insatiable curiosity about the inner workings of government. Others will get as much a laugh out of the links as I did.

    http://www.darkgovernment.com/info.html

    I would certainly being willing to debate and address your concerns but posting crackpot web sites really does not forward your argument.

  10. #40
    Ex Member Array spy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I would certainly being willing to debate and address your concerns but posting crackpot web sites really does not forward your argument.
    In my last post, the sources quoted were:

    cnn.com
    cbsnews.com
    news.bbc.co.uk
    foxnews.com
    msnbc

    among others. Care to point out the "crackpot websites" there?

    One of us has a genetic inability not to be able to recognize the truth when it's jumping up and biting us in the ass.

    (That would be you, in case you're confused).

    May you have a happy, not-intruded-upon-by-reality New Year (which I'm sure you will). Later. Pete

  11. #41
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spy1 View Post
    Care to point out the "crackpot websites" there?
    cryptome
    wired
    aclu
    rawstory
    capitolhillblue

    though I would be remiss if I didn't mention some of the other crackpot websites:

    bbc
    cnn
    cbs

    An appeal to authority is a logic flaw. Someone else's arguments with no credible evidence, even many of them (think bogus global warming consensus,) is no substitute for well presented arguments based on sound, verifiable evidence.

    May you have a happy, not-intruded-upon-by-reality New Year (which I'm sure you will). Later. Pete
    And a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    An appeal to authority is a logic flaw. Someone else's arguments with no credible evidence..... is no substitute for well presented arguments based on sound, verifiable evidence.
    (Emphasis mine - Pete)

    And there's the final "Gotcha!" for this thread - because you can't "prove" that everything I'm showing you isn't happening - I'm providing plenty of proof that it is, while you're providing nothing in the way of "proof" that it's not (except your own word, which as you pointed out so well above is worth absolutely nothing in this discussion).

    I've gotta bail, the kids/grandkids are starting to roll in. Pete

  13. #43
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    Slippery slope isn't exactly a logic fallacy as long as one does not treat it as a "must be" type senario. The breakdown of Firearm and Civil rights in Great Britian are a prime example of that. Things do tend to happen incrementally verses instantly.

    Absence of proof does not always mean that there isn't any just as one cannot (most often) effectivly prove a negative.

    As far as the Patriot act, although I have no sources on hand, I beleive that about 6 months ago there was a news story about people being randomly stopped and searched while driving along the Blue Ridge Parkway. From what I remember they were using (or attempting to use) some of the provisions of the Patriot Act to get around the need warrants, and the like. I have no source though so if someone could either correct me or collaberate I would appreciate it.

    Now to the OP: Anybody around my age or younger (24) probably had their parents do one of those "safe child" things where your fingerprints were taken in case you went missing or ran away. Also at least in NC you need your fingerprints taken to get a Conceal Carry permit. If you go to Disney World they take your fingerprints when you go through the gate. (I really do not like that) Cash a check at a bank now, same thing. So the information is already out there in an astonishing amount. Doesn't exactly make it right, but that is how it is.
    Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.

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  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    I've worked for the government enough, been fingerprinted, scanned, ploy'd... I can see how some could become worried but with the FBI? I'm not too worried.
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  15. #45
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    We all know, or should know, the government already have everything on us

    the problem is, if we allow certain steps to become law, then when they bring up certain evidence in court, you can't fight it, because it was "lawfully obtained"

    just like when you "sign" a document not holding your doctor liable, you can't go back and fight if something happens during operation

    many here talk about they're not worried and see no problem with allowing the government to have full reign because they don't break the law
    well heres news, to "some" you are already against the government by advocating PRO2A.

    .

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