SWAT team terrorizes family whos 11yr son fell at school and didn't go to a hospital

This is a discussion on SWAT team terrorizes family whos 11yr son fell at school and didn't go to a hospital within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; No heroes in this story. LE response was heavyhanded, in light of the facts made known AFTER THE FACT. Father is a knucklehead. A concussion ...

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Thread: SWAT team terrorizes family whos 11yr son fell at school and didn't go to a hospital

  1. #91
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    No heroes in this story.

    LE response was heavyhanded, in light of the facts made known AFTER THE FACT.

    Father is a knucklehead. A concussion can kill a kid just as surely (perhaps even MORE so) than it can kill an adult, and it's nearly impossible to rule OUT a concussion based upon a simple visual exam.

    A lot of emphasis has been placed upon the father being a "self-professed constitutionalist." This phrase speaks to such a gamut of attitudes as to be entirely worthless for the purpose of determining threat levels. It could include people such as me, who simply believe in the Constitution as the ideal of government, but would never dream of taking up arms against any government official simply for doing their legitimate jobs. It also includes those at the far end of the spectrum, who regularly murder police officers for such allegedly unconstitutional infractions as attempting to issue a traffic citation for driving without a license.

    It's a messy, complicated world we live in, and sometimes you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

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  3. #92
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    Dang, Sergeant Mac, that was well said.

    Farronwolf - he told responding government employees that the police had better "bring an army" if they planned on having the child see a doctor. You can downplay that all you'd like - it's a threat, to reasonable people.

    Yes, there was no serious damage to the child. It's nice that we all found that out... AFTER HE SAW A DOCTOR. Prior to that, it was anyone's guess - it is undisputed that the child hit his head on pavement while messing with a moving car. If you think that there is no chance that the child had a serious injury from that, then I don't know what to tell you. Big, strapping football players have been killed by HELMETED head injuries. Boxers have been killed by being hit in the head by gloved hands. Pavement is much less forgiving than either....

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing - we can be absolutely certain that our decisions were right - after the fact. Absent the ability to see into the future, the rest of us are forced to make decisions based on what we know at the time. No one knew what the extent of the injuries were. The best medical opinion available - the paramedic - said that further examination was required. Perhaps his precognition was off, or perhaps he was just a human being making an assessment based on his training and experience. Either way, had his professional advice been followed from the start, none of this would have happened...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #93
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    The bring the army statement is no more of a threat by the father than the statement of the government personell that said they were going to return to get the child to bring them him to a doctor when the parent objected.

    The facts are, even though we are looking at them after the fact that the child was in no danger of death or further injury. The facts are that the governments intervention in this case was unjustified. You can think that the government knows better than the parent if you like, but in this instance they were wrong. That is not debateable, no what if's for well he could have been at risk. In this case, that is not true, verified by a medical doctor.

    Below is from the Mayo Clinic. From my reading, no paramedic, or social worker that sees a child for a few minutes can by any means determine if there is evidence of a concussion. I don't know if the father did a internet search for symptoms or not, or if he had a home medic book to reference, nor does anyone else here. But we all know full well that the people in the household were in a much better possition to determine if any of the symptoms of head injury were present in the child or not. For those that are parents, you know full well what normal behavior is in your children, and know when they are sick or have something wrong with them. Those that aren't parents may not have any idea what I am talking about.

    Concussion: Signs and symptoms - MayoClinic.com

    The signs and symptoms of a concussion can be subtle and may not appear immediately. Symptoms can last for days, weeks or longer.

    The two most common concussion symptoms are confusion and amnesia. The amnesia, which may or may not be preceded by a loss of consciousness, almost always involves the loss of memory of the impact that caused the concussion.

    Other immediate signs and symptoms of a concussion may include:

    Headache
    Dizziness
    Ringing in the ears
    Nausea or vomiting
    Slurred speech
    Some symptoms of concussions don't appear until hours or days later. They include:

    Mood and cognitive disturbances
    Sensitivity to light and noise
    Sleep disturbances
    Head trauma is very common in young children. But concussions can be difficult to recognize in infants and toddlers because they can't readily communicate how they feel. Nonverbal clues of a concussion may include:

    Listlessness, tiring easily
    Irritability, crankiness
    Change in eating or sleeping patterns
    Lack of interest in favorite toys
    Loss of balance, unsteady walking

    When to seek medical adviceWhile most concussions get better on their own, some blows to the head can cause more serious injuries. You should seek medical advice if you have any of the following symptoms:

    Prolonged headache or dizziness
    Vision disturbances
    Nausea or vomiting
    Impaired balance
    Prolonged memory loss
    Ringing in the ears
    Loss of smell or taste
    Any child who has lost consciousness after a blow to the head should be seen by a doctor. Other warning signs of a potentially serious injury include persistent vomiting, seizures or a large bruise on the scalp. In general, a bruise on the front of the head is less dangerous than one on the side or back of the head.




    I understand why someone who works for the government would feel that they were justified in this situation. We all need a reason for our own existance, but put the shoe on the other foot. Let me come to your house and tell you that your putting your child in jeopardy, and that I am going to remove them from your care. I bet you would tell me to bring an army also.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  5. #94
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    I never said they were "justified," though it's nice of you to insinuate that I did... I said there are things you should look at before shouting down 'big brother" at the drop of a hat, when the fact is you know only a tiny portion of the facts...

    As for the medical treatment - are you trying to prove my point for me? Let's look at some of what you've posted:
    The signs and symptoms of a concussion can be subtle and may not appear immediately.
    So, hmmm, maybe an actual medical opinion might be in order after a child hits their head on pavement, even the next day (if for some crazy reason they haven't been seen sooner)?
    Symptoms can last for days, weeks or longer.
    So, the next day might not be out of order to look for symptoms?
    Some symptoms of concussions don't appear until hours or days later.
    So, the next day might not be out of order to look for symptoms?
    Other warning signs of a potentially serious injury include...a large bruise on the scalp...
    which this child had, indisputably (or did everyone lie about that, too?) And, since the father refused to allow any qualified medical evaluation, there was no way to tell what other symptoms the child may or may not have had...

    I'm not a street cop, or a social worker (though I did have to deal with them when my duplex got infested with German cockroaches, thanks to my neighbors - so I have first hand experience with them getting involved in my parenting), or a sheriff, or anyone else with a dog in the fight. I am, however, an intelligent person with a lot of experience with government ineptitude, bungling, over-reaching, and incompetence. I believe there was a fair amount of any number of those things in play here. I also believe that the "black helicopter" brigade is so blindly addicted to the idea of government maliciousness that they can't - even for one second - remove the blinders of conspiracy and bad intent to see that there is almost always more going on... The amount of things posted in this thread that are unsubstantiated - or made up out of whole cloth - tend to reinforce that belief...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  6. #95
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    We all only know a tiny portion of the facts.

    No I am not trying to prove your point for you I am trying to have you read, and understand that the people in the house were better equiped to monitor the childs behavior for the list of things that would indicate that there was danger to the child than anyone else.

    The bruise being one, and only one of the symptoms. A bruise does not a concussion make. Prolonged monitoring of the child is a proper method for determining if there is serious injury to the child. The parents apparently were doing that.

    Just because a person hits their head on the pavement does not mean that they need medical treatment. Sometimes yes, but not anywhere near always. Do people usually go to the doctor every time they get a bruise on their head. I don't, I am self employed and have to pay my own medical bills. If I am in need of medical attetion I get it, if I don't I stay home and deal with it. I make that call for me and my family, not someone else.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  7. #96
    Member Array Tye_Defender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Just because a person hits their head on the pavement does not mean that they need medical treatment. Sometimes yes, but not anywhere near always. Do people usually go to the doctor every time they get a bruise on their head.
    Maybe everybody but us does, and that's why insurance costs have sky rocketed and you have to wait 6 hours at the ER, it's full of people that go to the doctor for everything.

  8. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    We all only know a tiny portion of the facts.

    No I am not trying to prove your point for you I am trying to have you read, and understand that the people in the house were better equiped to monitor the childs behavior for the list of things that would indicate that there was danger to the child than anyone else.

    The bruise being one, and only one of the symptoms. A bruise does not a concussion make. Prolonged monitoring of the child is a proper method for determining if there is serious injury to the child. The parents apparently were doing that.

    Just because a person hits their head on the pavement does not mean that they need medical treatment. Sometimes yes, but not anywhere near always. Do people usually go to the doctor every time they get a bruise on their head. I don't, I am self employed and have to pay my own medical bills. If I am in need of medical attetion I get it, if I don't I stay home and deal with it. I make that call for me and my family, not someone else.
    You're not a child. You are capable of making your own decisions. If you want to treat your own injuries (or not treat them), more power to you. A child has no such options.

    And you're right, a child who hits their head on the pavement may or may not need medical treatment. It was the opinion of the only qualified medical person on the scene that this child DID need it, or at the very least needed an examination to determine the need for further treatment. Had the medical professional been given the opportunity to complete such an exam, perhaps this all would have ended there. And the assertion that the parents are better equipped to monitor the severity of the head wound than a doctor is, let's face it, pretty silly. They may be perfectly able to follow the instructions of a doctor once the extent of the injury has been determined, but they are NOT more qualified to make that determination. Again, the only actual medical person on the scene determined that more was needed...He was wrong, indeed, but I'm still taking the word of a paramedic over the word of a.... what? Un- or under- employed guy who may or may not have been a medic 40 years ago?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #98
    Senior Member Array flagflyfish's Avatar
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    "These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier
    and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the
    service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the
    love and thanks of man and woman."

    -- Thomas Paine (The American Crisis, No. 1, 19 December 1776)

  10. #99
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    You're not a child. You are capable of making your own decisions. If you want to treat your own injuries (or not treat them), more power to you. A child has no such options.
    Nope, the child must rely on their parents to make that call for them.
    And you're right, a child who hits their head on the pavement may or may not need medical treatment. It was the opinion of the only qualified medical person on the scene that this child DID need it, or at the very least needed an examination to determine the need for further treatment. Had the medical professional been given the opportunity to complete such an exam, perhaps this all would have ended there. And the assertion that the parents are better equipped to monitor the severity of the head wound than a doctor is, let's face it, pretty silly. They may be perfectly able to follow the instructions of a doctor once the extent of the injury has been determined, but they are NOT more qualified to make that determination. Again, the only actual medical person on the scene determined that more was needed...He was wrong, indeed, but I'm still taking the word of a paramedic over the word of a.... what? Un- or under- employed guy who may or may not have been a medic 40 years ago?
    Your misstating the given information. The parents never thought they were more qualified than a doctor to determine the severity of the injury. They did think they were more qualified than a paramedic to make that determination. I don't think that it is pretty silly for them to make that determination, you can if you would like, but I know my childs normal behavior better than any emt or paramedic, parents should.

    The only qualified medical person that saw the child was a paramedic. They are not doctors, or even close to doctors, their job is to stabilize the individual and transport them to a "quailified" medical facility. I hope when you injured or sick you don't go to a emt or paramedic for care. The child was stabilized.

    Reread the list of symptoms and such above. If you don't think that a parent can determine if a 10 yr old has:

    Headache
    Dizziness
    Ringing in the ears
    Nausea or vomiting
    Slurred speech
    Mood and cognitive disturbances
    Sensitivity to light and noise
    Sleep disturbances
    Listlessness, tiring easily
    Irritability, crankiness
    Change in eating or sleeping patterns
    Lack of interest in favorite toys
    Loss of balance, unsteady walking

    Then maybe we aren't even qualified to have children. I am not relying on the fact that he may or may not have been a medic previously. Simply that as a parent he is more than qualified to determine behavior changes in a 10 yr old child.

    Oh, and you say un or under employed individual, well if that ain't an opinion on the matter, what the heck is. After all we all can't be on the goverments (taxpayers) dole for all our lives like some are.
    Last edited by farronwolf; January 12th, 2008 at 12:57 AM.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  11. #100
    Member Array Ghuqu2's Avatar
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    How many times have they sent in the swat team to help the poor black kid living in the squalid, rundown crack house in the city?
    "The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us." Patrick Henry 1775

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