McConnell - All your internet are belong to us

This is a discussion on McConnell - All your internet are belong to us within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; SD, I seriously disagree with your assessment that "we are the government." That's how (to an extent -- not the Jacksonian democratic degree) the founders ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array biasedbulldog's Avatar
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    SD, I seriously disagree with your assessment that "we are the government." That's how (to an extent -- not the Jacksonian democratic degree) the founders envisioned, how every great American statesman has portrayed it... but unfortunately the government is now a monstrosity. The national offices are too huge, too distant to be truly representative. And besides that, the rise of the administrative state has made it such that even with the best representatives in Congress, the most Washingtonian executive, and the most discerning judges, we are left with this professional bureaucratic fourth branch, practically immune from the influence of voters.

    If anything, I'm moving towards constitutional monarchy ;).

    (I'm mostly kidding)
    "War necessarily brings with it some virtues, and great and heroic virtues too. What horrid creatures we men are, that we cannot be virtuous without murdering one another?" -John Adams

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Selfdefense,

    I was not only referring to the illegal aliens, but the people that are here on expired visa's or any other person that does not have the proper paperwork. The people who attacked us on 9/11 all came to the country legally, but overstayed their legal visit from what I understand. If we can't keep track of those that overstay their visit, we really have no hope of winning the so called "war" on terror within our boarders.

    And yes, war must be declared by Congress. If your going to go strickly by what the constituion says, that is clear, I will agree with the simple reading on that point.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  4. #33
    Ex Member Array spy1's Avatar
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    SelfDefense - Exactly how many times do I have to post this link before you acknowledge that the government HAS been abusing their power?

    Audit: FBI's Patriot Act snooping broke rules - CNN.com

    Here's just a few (of many) more:"Is the Pentagon Spying on Americans?"
    Is the Pentagon spying on Americans? - Lisa Myers & the NBC News Investigative Unit - MSNBC.com

    "Feds Ramp Up Spying on Jouralists', Other Americans"
    Capitol Hill Blue: Feds ramp up spying on journalists, other Americans

    "Secret Pentagon Database Collected Wrong Information"
    FOXNews.com - Secret Pentagon Database Collected Wrong Information - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum

    You've got the "big lie" tactic down pat, I'll give you that - but do you really think anyone's falling for it??? Pete

  5. #34
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    selfdefense, they've abused every power ever given to them. if you want examples in this particular area, all you need do is look at the front page of the EFF, EPIC, ACLU, etc.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  6. #35
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biasedbulldog View Post
    SD, I seriously disagree with your assessment that "we are the government." That's how (to an extent -- not the Jacksonian democratic degree) the founders envisioned, how every great American statesman has portrayed it... but unfortunately the government is now a monstrosity. The national offices are too huge, too distant to be truly representative. And besides that, the rise of the administrative state has made it such that even with the best representatives in Congress, the most Washingtonian executive, and the most discerning judges, we are left with this professional bureaucratic fourth branch, practically immune from the influence of voters.

    If anything, I'm moving towards constitutional monarchy ;).

    (I'm mostly kidding)
    I agree that government is too large and its administrative bureacracy is a mess. But we can change it by electing people who would wean us off the oppressive tax system, eliminate the nanny state programs, and move us from the socialist leanings of Europe to the base Republic the Founders envisioned.

    If Ron Paul were not such a ... if he had more insight concerning the worldwide responsibilities of the United States and other key issues then he could better espouse and have accepted his views of smaller government. What we really need is the leadership and intelligence of Newt Gingrich, who was tarred forever in the '90s

    In the end, though, we can change the direction of the nation. But by design that change is so slow as to be almost imperceptible.

  7. #36
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Selfdefense,

    I was not only referring to the illegal aliens, but the people that are here on expired visa's or any other person that does not have the proper paperwork. The people who attacked us on 9/11 all came to the country legally, but overstayed their legal visit from what I understand. If we can't keep track of those that overstay their visit, we really have no hope of winning the so called "war" on terror within our boarders.
    I agree, which is why I support the Real ID. That will address all of those concerns.

    And yes, war must be declared by Congress. If your going to go strickly by what the constituion says, that is clear, I will agree with the simple reading on that point.
    We are going there! The problem, obviously, is when the enemy attacks and declares war against the United States then it is the Constitutional mandate of the Executive to protect our national security and has broad powers to accomplish that. The Congress cannot control what the Executive does. They can withhold funding as that is their responsibility. Basically, Congress is a bunch of Nancys (Pelosi) and they simply won't take responsibility to actually declare war. I believe that if the President would have asked Congress for a declaration of war then it would have easily passed. The President does not need that to perform his job. And Congress clearly agrees since they continue funding.

  8. #37
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaed View Post
    selfdefense, they've abused every power ever given to them. if you want examples in this particular area, all you need do is look at the front page of the EFF, EPIC, ACLU, etc.
    I am not familiar with EFF or EPIC, but the ACLU is mostly an anti-American organziation attempting to mold the US into a secular, gun free society that takes away the basic rights of Americans.

    I am still waiting to hear specific examples of how your particular rights have been violated and what hardship you endured. Scanning email for terrorist activity does not cause a bit of hardhip for anyne other than terrorists.

  9. #38
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I am not familiar with EFF or EPIC, but the ACLU is mostly an anti-American organziation attempting to mold the US into a secular, gun free society that takes away the basic rights of Americans.

    I am still waiting to hear specific examples of how your particular rights have been violated and what hardship you endured. Scanning email for terrorist activity does not cause a bit of hardhip for anyne other than terrorists.
    first off, you've been given examples/logic by myself and others that you simply ignore because you have no answer to them. this implies bias. secondly, the ACLU has done a lot of good in other areas besides 2A. the fact that they choose to leave 2A alone doesn't make them what you said they are (which is some party-line, uninformed bs.)

    in addition, you seem to have no understanding of what power this would grant them. you also state that it wouldn't cost anything. that's incorrect. the infrastructure is already in place for the most part on search engines, granted. but email is a different story. to capture all of that traffic, they'd have to install black boxes at every ISP. they'd also have to lease/install lines for the bandwidth to the processing facilities. this could, in essence, create a network on the scale of the US's portion of the internet itself. it'd cost billions, depending on how far they took it.

    also, having that infrastructure in place would allow them to have access to every electronic communication from anyone anywhere in the U.S. even if they say they are just looking at email traffic, they'd still have to sift through *everything* to find it...and they'd have access to *everything*. you may not know this, but even your landline and cell circuits are converted to IP packets, ATM cells, or MPLS upstream somewhere.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  10. #39
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaed View Post
    first off, you've been given examples/logic by myself and others that you simply ignore because you have no answer to them. this implies bias.
    I freely admit I am biased. I want the Federal government to protect the national security using every easure available to them. And I have certainly addressed every 'example' / 'logic' directed towards my arguments. More to the point is those that are fearful of benign secuity measures were unable to address the actual US Code sections that I provided. I notice that no one wanted to argue the facts based on existing law.

    secondly, the ACLU has done a lot of good in other areas besides 2A.
    You mean like violating the rights of people to freely practice religion? You mean defending the perverts and degenerates in our society?

    the fact that they choose to leave 2A alone doesn't make them what you said they are (which is some party-line, uninformed bs.)
    Exactly what 'party line' is that? Do you deny the ACLU is attempting to eliminate religion from the public square (unless it is muslim footbaths) against the wishes of over 90% on the population and the Constitution? Our roght to self defense and its protection provided by 2A is a GOd gven right. The ACLU does not recognize our rights are endowed by the Creator, which is clearly articulated in the Declaration of Independence.

    in addition, you seem to have no understanding of what power this would grant them. you also state that it wouldn't cost anything. that's incorrect. the infrastructure is already in place for the most part on search engines, granted. but email is a different story. to capture all of that traffic, they'd have to install black boxes at every ISP. they'd also have to lease/install lines for the bandwidth to the processing facilities. this could, in essence, create a network on the scale of the US's portion of the internet itself. it'd cost billions, depending on how far they took it.
    I was refering to the liberty costs, not the monetary costs. The monetary costs are approved by Congress, not the Executive, that is, the representatives of the people. As far as cost, I'm sure you would be surprised at the amount of money spent on defense that has no pblic accountability and the funding remains classified. Yet it is absolutely necessary to the defense of the United States.

    I would argue that most people, since they are not part of the security agencies, are completely unaware of the neccessary intelligence measures that the United States employs at the taxpayers expense. The cost of freedom is not free.

    also, having that infrastructure in place would allow them to have access to every electronic communication from anyone anywhere in the U.S. even if they say they are just looking at email traffic, they'd still have to sift through *everything* to find it...and they'd have access to *everything*.
    You make it sound as if someone is reading you email. Believe me, they don't care. Computers mine data for patterns that identify terrorists. I really don't understand your concern. What are you afraid of? Why do you want to undermine proven technlogy that saves Americans lives?

  11. #40
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    Believe me, they don't care.
    until you **** someone off with your differing opinion, own an asset that they want, or have power that they do not approve of.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  12. #41
    Member Array biasedbulldog's Avatar
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    I'm still waiting for Constitutional justification for reading email based on a delegated power ;)
    "War necessarily brings with it some virtues, and great and heroic virtues too. What horrid creatures we men are, that we cannot be virtuous without murdering one another?" -John Adams

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Here is something interesting that I ran across.

    Apparrantly at least the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals thinks that email is covered by the 4th ammendment. It has not been decided as to whether the government will appeal it to the Supreme Court. So, it appears that this is not so clear cut as some my want us to believe.

    http://w2.eff.org/legal/cases/warsha...injunction.pdf

    the district court deemed it unnecessary to examine his likelihood of success on the SCA claim. It also found that Warshak would suffer
    irreparable harm based on any additional constitutional violations, that such harm was imminent inlight of the government’s past violations and its refusal to agree not to conduct similar seizures in
    the future, that Warshak lacked an adequate remedy at law to protect his Fourth Amendment rights, and that the public interest in preventing constitutional violations weighed in favor of the injunction.
    The district court also made clear that further factual development would be necessary for a final disposition, and that the injunction was tailored to protect Warshak from constitutional violations in the interim.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  14. #43
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    "all your internet belongs to us"...this was on "40oz. Warriors" site...off some pics that were sent in that said"all your beer belongs to us"....came from AU i think....
    just my .02.......this was where I first observed it,being on that site it could have come from anyplace on the net or from video games.....
    Last edited by simon; January 20th, 2008 at 05:05 AM. Reason: addition

  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array Stetson's Avatar
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    We continue to lose rights under the just of security. Come on my fellow citizens wake up! We've always has threats and we've survived during times of
    tribulation and war.The way we going you are going to have a card for money
    a camera in every room in your house and national ID card.Fight this now and
    every little piece of legislation that comes down the pipe that takes away our personal freedoms.

  16. #45
    Ex Member Array spy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I am not familiar with EFF or EPIC,
    Then get familiar with them -it's easy enough if you have an open mind and a computer:

    Electronic Frontier Foundation | Defending Freedom in the Digital World

    Electronic Privacy Information Center

    CDT | Center for Democracy & Technology

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I am still waiting to hear specific examples of how your particular rights have been violated and what hardship you endured. Scanning email for terrorist activity does not cause a bit of hardhip for anyne other than terrorists.
    And I'm still waiting for you to stop using such a pitiful argument to "support" your position. Again - I've stated time and again that there's no possible way to prove an impact on an individual if the government itself absolutely REFUSES to release the names of the individuals they've already monitored.

    Employers won't tell you if you've been put under the microscope by the feds (didn't get that last promotion or raise? Will you ever know why?), businesses won't tell you if your records have been requested - both on pain of fines.

    They can't even fight an NSL or a section 215 without waiting a year to start the process after being served - and then they would have to do so at their own expense (which pretty much guarantees they won't do it at all, which is exactly why it was set up like that by the government).

    About the only thing that could tip someone off is if they were selected for further "processing" when they attempted to board a plane - and even that wouldn't be proof-positive, as it could very well be government stupidity instead of proof of actual "filing/listing".

    You seem to keep assuming that people are stupid, and that they can't reason this stuff out for themselves - they can and have and will continue to do so.

    The only question is - when are you going to figure it out for yourself? pete

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