We need better gov'mint funded health care

This is a discussion on We need better gov'mint funded health care within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by retsupt99 I'm willing to help those who are really desperate through no fault of their own. But when I see the lazy ...

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Thread: We need better gov'mint funded health care

  1. #16
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    There is another side

    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I'm willing to help those who are really desperate through no fault of their own.
    But when I see the lazy scumbags who are 2nd and 3rd generation 'give it all to me free' bunch...because they want to sit on the porch and drink beer all day...NO MORE FREE RIDES!

    If you're too lazy to work...then you can starve! OMO
    Maybe this is all getting too political, but there is quite another side to this story. Plenty of people don't get health insurance NOT because they are lazy and not working, but because their employers won't contribute a dime and they can't purchase private individual policies.

    Moreover, it is almost impossible to obtain affordable insurance (that is reliable in any way and covers much) if you have even the most minor medical condition that can be pointed to to cause a rejection.

    And then, there are folks like my office colleague who was just diagnosed with a brain tumor and will lose insurance the moment she can't work.

    And the folks who lose their health and their jobs in their late 50s. Too old and sick and poor to buy insurance after a lifetime of hard work. Too young for Medicare. What are these folks to do? They haven't been the moochers some here worry about.

    I got a brochure from my insurer bragging that they payout 95% of the premium dollars and have only a 5% overhead. By most standards that is doing great, but it is huge overhead compared to Medicare--yeah, gov'mint.

    Another real crisis in health care is the organized crime of hospital and physician overcharges, deliberate billing errors (always against the patients), fraud and cheating. All of this needs to be brought under control and it will take strong medicine to stop the robbery of ordinary working Americans.

    And there is also a huge problem of under-insurance. Folks who have insurance but it is grossly inadequate. Many employees where I work buy the least expensive policy available and STILL can not afford the premiums.

    We can do better than that as a nation if we get past the hate and fear of "those others" who we think "don't do their part" to "take care of themselves." That could be any of us at almost any moment. It is just a matter of luck. One job loss, one expensive illness, and you all would be singing a different tune.

    Unless you are independently wealthy, one accident, one cancer battle, and your source of income and insurance will be gone.

    BTW, the jury is still out on the Mass. plan, which may or may not be a pretty good solution. So there are (maybe) solutions which do not need to be unnecessarily partisan.

    One thing is for sure, spending 30% of our health care dollars on paper pushers as we do now with innumerable private insurers is ridiculous. It is wasteful, inefficient, and basically doesn't work very well for any one except the stockholders and holding companies.

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  3. #17
    Member Array snakatack's Avatar
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    If you think healthcare is expensive now....

    Just wait till it's free.

  4. #18
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    The numbers usually quoted for the un-insured in the US, while possibly accurate, do not show the true picture. Those individuals that are in crisis and need medical care ARE currently being taken care of in our hospitals with the tab being paid with increased medical insurance costs to the rest of us.

    A majority of the un-insured are individuals that rely on an employer to decide for them, which company will carry their health insurance plan. (A very bad way of doing this, as you pointed out, Hopyard.) These individuals will once again be covered when they land a new job.

    Another large segment are young people who believe, for whatever reason they do not want/need health insurance. They may feel invincible or don't want to pay the 25%+/- co-payments.

    Which dovetails into another segment of the un-insured pie, the folks that do not want to make the payments, they can by any measure afford the premiums, but choose rather to buy tangible stuff, e.g. plasma TV, BMW, etc.

    This is not accounting for the illegal invasion of aliens that are sucking at the teat at the expense of lower insurance and medical costs, adequate and available medical centers and hospitals.

    We as a federation have always been charitable, and maybe to a fault. But "forced" compliance, such as in Mass. is one more slap in the face.

  5. #19
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    I'm not sure if I'll be able to get this out without sounding like a jerk....maybe I'm just young and stupid and don't know any better.

    The fact that insurance is required to get healthcare raises the cost of healthcare. The government being involved in any way also raises the cost. Money grubbing sue-happy patients raise the cost. The insurance companies want everyone in the country to have health insurance. Then health care costs will go up more since insurance companies will be paying instead of individuals. So then insurance rates will go up, and health care rates go up, etc... Getting the government involved just makes things worse.

    I figured it out - if I just stop here and leave out the rest then I'm not such a jerk.

    Austin

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    I own part of a small business and I can't afford health insurance right now. Either for myself or my two employees. I wish I could but it's a budget buster at this point. I have a wife with advanced MS and uninsurable. I have high BP as well. I have been denied enrollment in the VA system that my previous service supposedly guarenteed me for life because they now income test new enrollees and unless you make poverty wages, forget it. I will need to get a lawyer and sue the SS system to get any resolution or help for my wife, a trial usually years long she does not feel up to facing. We lost most of what we had when she first manifested her MS and it took six years of sacrifice to pay the leeches in the medical system off. Our medical/insurance system is broken, completely for many folks like myself and many others I have met in the same boat.

    It's easy to pontificate about the evils of all the proposals when you have employer supplied insurance, make enough to afford it or have never faced a health crisis of the kind we have. Nothing personal folks but you really haven't seen the other side and can't imagine what it's like. Despite everyone carrying on about the great evils of govt. supplied health care in other countries have you actually been there and seen all this first hand? Or are you just parroting the sensationalized PR many are as guilty of as the Brady bunch with their hooey.

    A recent survey of industrialized countries placed our medical system 9th out of 12. We tanked on affordability, availability and preventive care. Our system is so rife with special interests, conflicting interests, corruption, massive egos and shady operations that it's going to take a major miracle to straighten the quagmire out. I have way too much personal experience with this disaster we call a medical system to agree with many here. I can tell you that in many European and even south American countries my wife would be receiving incredible help. I know because we have close friends there with the same disease. Here we get nothing unless I'm willing to subject my wife to all the stress and troubles of lawyers and lawsuits, something that is pretty much guarenteed to make her even worse. So she has elected to carry on as best she can and I do what I can for her.

    I know other people with a great deal of experience in the world who can afford to leave the US for their health care because the care they get in other places is so much better and more compassionate. You're free to disagree with me and carry on all you like but what I'm saying is our system is a friggin disaster for many of us and while ideas like Hillary's plan strike me as a recipe for disaster I'd like to see some other ideas put forward because what we have is broken.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  7. #21
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    Yup, Indeed

    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr View Post
    I own part of a small business and I can't afford health insurance right now. (DELETED STUFF) Our system is so rife with special interests, conflicting interests, corruption, massive egos and shady operations that it's going to take a major miracle to straighten the quagmire out. (DELETED)

    You're free to disagree with me and carry on all you like but what I'm saying is our system is a friggin disaster for many of us and while ideas like Hillary's plan strike me as a recipe for disaster I'd like to see some other ideas put forward because what we have is broken.
    Somehow, health insurance (regardless or whether it is private or public) must become decoupled from employment. Personally, I like Medicare For ALL; with private insurers permitted to sell supplemental policies.

    But nothing will work if we don't produce vastly greater numbers of physicians, nurses, other health care providers, and take strong measures to weed out the greed, corruption, fraud, etc. that is rampant. (And anyone who has ever received a significant hospital bill, knows just how rampant these shady practices are.) Shame on us as a nation that our political system can't fix this mess--but instead perpetuates it.

  8. #22
    Member Array LastManOut's Avatar
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    Most of the cross-border health care is FROM other countries into the USA. Michael Moore should go to Cuba for HIS health care. The exodus of US citizens to other countries for health care is due to the lower price of that care, and it is sometime sub-par.
    Get the lawyers out of the health care business, tort reform is needed. In all other industrialized nations, the loosing party pays ALL cost for litigation. An idea that is overdue here.

  9. #23
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr View Post
    It's easy to pontificate about the evils of all the proposals when you have employer supplied insurance, make enough to afford it or have never faced a health crisis of the kind we have. Nothing personal folks but you really haven't seen the other side and can't imagine what it's like. Despite everyone carrying on about the great evils of govt. supplied health care in other countries have you actually been there and seen all this first hand? Or are you just parroting the sensationalized PR many are as guilty of as the Brady bunch with their hooey.
    No hooey at all. Employers should not be involved in health care. The only reason employers subsidize some employees is to entice them to work a their company. It has nothing to do with health care. Government health care is completely anti-American. I sympathize with you. I really do. But if your family, friends and neighbors don't want to help why should you hold a gun to my head and make me help you?

    A recent survey of industrialized countries placed our medical system 9th out of 12. We tanked on affordability, availability and preventive care. Our system is so rife with special interests, conflicting interests, corruption, massive egos and shady operations that it's going to take a major miracle to straighten the quagmire out. I have way too much personal experience with this disaster we call a medical system to agree with many here. I can tell you that in many European and even south American countries my wife would be receiving incredible help.
    Perhaps, but it is on the back of our technology. Advances in medicine cost money. Alot of money. People whine about the cost of pharmaceuticals but they do not understand the hundreds of millions of dollars involved with development and testing.

    Our medical system is, by far, the best in the world. When people in these socialist countries have real medical emergencies they come to the United States. I don't see a great demand to go to Canada, England or Cuba, where the waits are interminable and some people die before their medical appointments.

    Advanced medicine is not inexpensive. Why do people think they should be able to take advantage of the hard wor and investment of others. I think a Ferrari is a great car but I don't go around demanding the government buy me one.

    I know other people with a great deal of experience in the world who can afford to leave the US for their health care because the care they get in other places is so much better and more compassionate.
    Can you document this claim? Where is medical care better than in the United States?

    You're free to disagree with me and carry on all you like but what I'm saying is our system is a friggin disaster for many of us and while ideas like Hillary's plan strike me as a recipe for disaster I'd like to see some other ideas put forward because what we have is broken.
    Our system is not broken. We continue to invent miraculous drugs and solve/control medical problems previously thought death sentences.

    What we have created is a medical welfare state, where people think they have a right to 'free' medical care. Just go to an emergncy room if southern Arizona. Illegals (and others without insurance) are treated for the most minor of injuries and fill up waiting rooms with kids who have the flu. And in Arizona, it is illegal for the hospital to even ask for insurance before treatment so as not to discriminate against illegal aliens.

    Worse, we have allowed people to sue (and win) when professionals make mistakes (or not even mistakes) creating medical malpractice insurance premiums (and lawsuits) that discourage people from becoming doctors. Fewer doctors, higher prices.

    Yes, the health care system is damaged, but not nearly in the way promulgated by the media.

  10. #24
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    It is far worse

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Yes, the health care system is damaged, but not nearly in the way promulgated by the media.
    On this you are right, but not the way you think. It is damaged indeed, and way more than most who have not suffered without insurance or with inadequate insurance will ever realize.

    So, let's see. You want the government out of health care, but I take it you don't mind if MY tax dollars are used to build medical schools that accept students who expect to become filthy rich on other's misery.

    You want the government out of health care, but I take it you don't mind giving that "friendly" non-profit (or for profit) hospital huge property tax breaks, so their CEO and CFOs can haul down huge salaries.

    You want the government out of health care, but it is OK to use
    tax payer money to subsidize and guarantee loans for med students, nursing students, technicians, etc.? (To say nothing of legions of graduate students in biomedical sciences.)

    You want the government out of it, but you have I'm sure absolutely no clue the huge amount of tax dollars spent to finance all manner of research --directly or indirectly leading to the discoveries that we benefit from. The basic research is almost never ever done by the pharmaceutical industry, as they would have you believe.

    You want the government out of it? Consider what society would really look like if the government got out of it.

    The taxpayer has already paid for their medical care. We have paid through the nose to support a system that doesn't deliver.

    Draft the providers and pay Captain's salaries. It is past time for all the rip-off to stop.

  11. #25
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    So, let's see. You want the government out of health care, but I take it you don't mind if MY tax dollars are used to build medical schools that accept students who expect to become filthy rich on other's misery.
    Why should the government build medical schools? Where is that mandate in the Constitution?


    You want the government out of health care, but I take it you don't mind giving that "friendly" non-profit (or for profit) hospital huge property tax breaks, so their CEO and CFOs can haul down huge salaries.
    The CEOs and CFOs earn their salaries. The rason they have their jobs is because they increase the value of the business. People who complain about other's salaries strike me as being jealous. No business is 'non-profit.' That entire concept is without merit. Government steering behavior based on tax policy is slavery. Support the Fair Tax.

    You want the government out of health care, but it is OK to use
    tax payer money to subsidize and guarantee loans for med students, nursing students, technicians, etc.? (To say nothing of legions of graduate students in biomedical sciences.)
    Why should the government subsidize or guarantee loans for anyone? Why would you attribute your complaints to my positions?

    You want the government out of it, but you have I'm sure absolutely no clue the huge amount of tax dollars spent to finance all manner of research --directly or indirectly leading to the discoveries that we benefit from. The basic research is almost never ever done by the pharmaceutical industry, as they would have you believe.
    That is simply wrong. The pharmaceutical companies invest massive amounts of money to conform with government regulations and research and development. Yes, there is some research money spent by the Federal government. Not nearly as much as you intimate. It is miniscule compared with private investment, as it should be.

    You want the government out of it? Consider what society would really look like if the government got out of it.
    It would reflect what the Founders envisioned. I don't see health care anywhere in the Constitution. There is no right to health care.

    The taxpayer has already paid for their medical care. We have paid through the nose to support a system that doesn't deliver.
    So your answer is to expand government involvement?

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by exactlymypoint View Post
    Maybe it is time all of the people who want to live by the Constitution we originally had emmigrate to one state, take it over (population wise, hence voting wise) elect our own politicians and the secede from the Union.

    Interestingly, Hong Kong had the freest market in the world and look what one city built. One state with a truly free market would overpower the rest of the nation. Any motions on which state??
    wyoming
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Self Defense, in response to your post I'll say this and then I'm out of this thread. I'm not holding a gun to your head demanding your help. However at some point all of society suffers with a system that denies needed care to it's working and tax paying citizens. Do you think you could afford $60,000 a year for a med that might help your wife? I can't. If I divorce her and abandon her the govt. will give her everything but not as long as I'm married to her and still trying to make it. Do you see a problem her? I do.

    You say in some countries people are dieing waiting for med appointments? You think that doesn't happen here? I don't have the space or the time to tell you of the nightmares I've PERSONALLY witnessed in our system here that have resulted in death or long term suffering as a DIRECT result of how our system is not working.

    You think our system is the best? Hmmmm, I know of a Cardiac surgeon who got treatment for his own heart problem at a hospital in Brazil. Why? Because the level of care and treatment was better there. The same equipment, a doctor trained at the finest institutions and a nurse/patient ratio that no US hospital can come close to. He also stated that there, people actually really cared, personally and proffesionaly about their patients care and well being at a level he has never seen here.

    I know, personally, of many others who go overseas for health care not because it's just cheaper but because it is often better. Not sub par. We are not talking about running to a Tijuana clinic for some cheap meds. I'm talking about cancer treatment, spinal surgery, heart surgery and other major procedures. These are not seniors on a fixed income looking to save money but well educated and travelled people worried about getting the best care they can.

    I'm not saying the socialized medicine model is the right answer is the best answer but I do know that a pure profit oriented system, dogged by lawyers, inflated by corruption and greed, justified by lobbyists and PR campaigns is not working well unless you have plenty of expensive insurance and extra cash to boot.

    I'm willing to pay my way but I challenge you to watch one of your loved ones slowly lose everything in their health and be REFUSED care because you can't pay in advance and can't even get insurance and tell me how wonderful our system is. I'm out of here......
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  14. #28
    Member Array LastManOut's Avatar
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    What has mostly been argued are the symptoms of the underlying problem. Reasonably priced health insurance, affordable to almost everyone is what is the foundational problem. In other words, shared risk. Hillary's model is not to fix the problem but throw more money at the symptom, the high cost. Costs will spiral out of the reach of even a prosperous federal gov'mint.

    If the problem is the high premiums for health insurance, why are they so high? Doctors and hospital insurance rates are also through the roof. Why?

    My short list of "fixes" would be:
    1. Limit tort lawsuits by going to a looser pays all legal fees. Frivolous lawsuits would be eliminated, as well as "get rich quick" lawsuits.
    2. Eliminate the system negative incentive of percentage based legal fees i.e. 40% of $100M settlement.
    3. Eliminate gov'mint mandates that require hospitals to accept patients regardless of ability to pay for services. If someone chooses to self-insure, then they must be required to pay for their own services. The small percentage of individuals "in crisis" could easily be subsidized.
    4. Remove gov'mint regulations thus allowing Nurse Practitioners and para-medics to operate small clinics for boo-boos.


    There are more systemic problems, but affordable health insurance would seem to be the solution.

  15. #29
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    I agree with Self Defense and LastManOut. Government money shouldn't be going towards this stuff. If a bunch of rich people want to get together and donate money and donate to medical research, good for them. If a doctor (on an individual basis) wants to perform medical procedures on patients that couldn't afford it - good for them. Medical prices are too high - but that doesn't mean we need to get the government involved - it means we need to get the government out of it. The right to life does not mean if you have a brain tumor you have a right to have an expensive surgery so you can keep living....it just means people aren't allowed to actually kill you.

    If my wife gets sick, naturally I won't divorce her. The whole "in sickness and in health" part of the vow comes into play there. I am sorry for your situation ElCruiser, and I think you are doing the right thing. It is rarely easy when you go that route!

    From an objective standpoint, not everyone on earth is going to live forever. Some will live to be 30, some will live to be 110. Some of this is based on life choices, some is based on physical health, and some is just genetics. I think its just the way things go!

    Austin

  16. #30
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    [QUOTE=ELCruisr;651030]It's easy to pontificate about the evils of all the proposals when you have employer supplied insurance, make enough to afford it or have never faced a health crisis of the kind we have. Nothing personal folks but you really haven't seen the other side and can't imagine what it's like. Despite everyone carrying on about the great evils of govt. supplied health care in other countries have you actually been there and seen all this first hand? Or are you just parroting the sensationalized PR many are as guilty of as the Brady bunch with their hooey.
    QUOTE]

    I have seen the "Other Side" as I have worked as a Healthcare consultant in the UK, Canada and other socialized countries. What I have seen is very scary in regards to healthcare delivery to the average citizen. Their income taxes are incredibly high to help substantiate the bureaucracy that was built to establish the government health programs. In fact if most people in the US add their healthcare premiums to their taxes and calculate the percentage of income, it will usually be much less than the 50% that they pay in these countries.

    BTW. People in these socialized medicine countries that have money (i.e. the rich) don't go to the public hospitals. There is a thriving business in private hospitals in these countries. If you want to see check out this web site.

    Private Health Insurance - BUPA UK - Medical Care Information

    This is an insurance plan that owns hospitals separate from the government plan for those with enough money to afford it.

    Not to mention, in the UK, they are actually exploring ways for hospitals to become more self governing. These are the Community Trust hospitals. Here is an example of one.

    The page cannot be found

    The consulting that I was doing in some of these countries was to help them become more like the "American System" without resorting to managed care. When the truth be known, the rise in healthcare costs is insurance premiums, not what is actually being paid to doctors and hospitals. Read the examples on this web site on where your insurance premiums are going:

    Health Care Renewal: How Can a $124.8 Million a Year CEO Make Health Care More Affordable?

    The real culprits to making healthcare expensive is the insurance companies. As a matter of fact, we have doctors in this country who have accepted the discounts and put up with the denied claims from these companies and are now going bankrupt. I know several who had to close their practices due to low payments and high malpractice insurance (which they never had to use but were required to have.)

    On the other hand the sad fact of the matter is that if you don't have the insurance, you don't get the discounts when you need medical treatments. The large insurance companies really have the industry in a headlock when it comes to paying claims. There are solutions and it isn't socialized medicine. Here are some reasonable solutions that would offer a lot of relief, they are from a person who is a Medical Doctor and understands the industry.

    Lowering the Cost of Health Care by Ron Paul

    Just my 2 cents.

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