Sage Advice/Never talk to the police :MERGED

This is a discussion on Sage Advice/Never talk to the police :MERGED within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by MitchellCT Hearsay is an out of court statement made by someone other than the witness offered in court to prove (or disprove) ...

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Thread: Sage Advice/Never talk to the police :MERGED

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Hearsay is an out of court statement made by someone other than the witness offered in court to prove (or disprove) the truth of the matter asserted.

    The police officer on the stand is testifying to what you said to him in the interrogation room in order to assist the prosecution in proving their case.

    The witness, the police officer, is not the person who made the statement, however it is being offered into evidence against the original speaker.

    The Federal Rules of Evidence codify exemptions to the hearsay rule. Among those exemptions are statements against penal interest, i.e. things you say which are against your interest in a criminal setting.

    They are admitted into evidence because people who say incriminating things are supposedly unlikely to say such things if they were untrue, while self serving statements are just that - self serving.

    If you want to make those, do it in court on the stand while the jury can observe your demeanor.
    I understand that singular reason for it, but I don't believe it's fair. JMO.

    You also stated in another post that statements taken immediately after an incident are seen as more truthful and believed because you haven't had time to lie. Unless they would help your defense, I'm assuming, because then they'd be hearsay.

    Also, if you make those same statements on the stand in court, can they be considered hearsay as well? If not, then why would there be any requests from the defense for other testimony? Couldn't they just put you on the stand to run through all those things they wanted the officers to say? Then they could turn around and tell the jury that you had already told all of that to the officers and make it sound like they're witholding evidence.

    I'm only asking because IANAL, and I've never been a defendent. I honestly don't know.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post
    I know that. Saying we crashed their server is a generic comment for website failures....
    I made that distinction because I have a personal stake in how those differences are perceived by the public.

    When I was in the hosting business I faced three issues. The ability of the server (or server farm) to respond to high traffic demand. Sometimes things stalled out.

    Sometimes server software was susceptible to high demand or to attack and caused an actual crash requiring either manual or automated reboot.

    Last were bandwidth issues. This was usually either a cost issue or an issue of my bandwidth provider either limiting me or cutting me off temporarily.

    Server capacity and bandwidth were usually within my control. Server software susceptibly to high demand or attack were not. As a professional I'm sensitive to the perception that I did not do my job well if there was a crash (by my definition). Limitations that I should have tracked, paid attention to and proactively dealt with would have been a professional failure on my part.

    I guess that I'm one of those who, when asked the time, first replys with the history of clock making.
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    This link was on three of the four gun related forums that I frequent the most. I would not be surprised that cross posting took off given how much the message resonated with people with our interests.
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

  5. #34
    Member Array tabraha's Avatar
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    Can't wait for the bandwidth to reset based on the reviews.

    MitchellCT, your posts are honestly enough information for me to know what to do! Thanks for sharing your viewpoint and experience with us.
    ______________________
    Tad A.

  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
    I guess that I'm one of those who, when asked the time, first replys with the history of clock making.
    I'm guilty of that too.

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array mr.stuart's Avatar
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    Is this the same thing?Good advice?


  8. #37
    Member Array nativenyerintexas's Avatar
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    All I had to do to learn what NOT to do was to watch NYPD Blue... and live in NYC for the first 40 years of my life. If the cops want to talk to you about an incident... ask for a lawyer. The cops might accuse you of having something to hide but hey, at least there's a greater chance it will keep me out of jail.

    Couldn
    t watch the video though... too many people are accessing it right now.
    It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.

    --- Hugo Grotius

  9. #38
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.stuart View Post
    Not the same thing, but still very interesting. Thanks for the link.
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post

    You also stated in another post that statements taken immediately after an incident are seen as more truthful and believed because you haven't had time to lie. Unless they would help your defense, I'm assuming, because then they'd be hearsay.

    Also, if you make those same statements on the stand in court, can they be considered hearsay as well?
    Hearsay is an out of court statement made by someone other than the witness offered in court to prove (or disprove) the truth of the matter asserted.

    The textbook definition (the above is worded differently) is this:

    "Hearsay" is a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. Federal Rules of Evidence (LII 2006 ed.)

    Statements made by the declarant on the stand at trial or a hearing are not hearsay.

    The rule for hearsay statements is rule 802:

    Hearsay is not admissible except as provided by these rules or by other rules prescribed by the Supreme Court pursuant to statutory authority or by Act of Congress.

    Exemptions to the hearsay rule are found in rule 803 (availability of declarant immaterial) & 804 (declarant unavailable)

    The following are not excluded by the hearsay rule, even though the declarant is available as a witness:

    803's primary points applicable to a use of force incident are:

    (1) Present sense impression. A statement describing or explaining an event or condition made while the declarant was perceiving the event or condition, or immediately thereafter.


    (2) Excited utterance. A statement relating to a startling event or condition made while the declarant was under the stress of excitement caused by the event or condition.

    (3) Then existing mental, emotional, or physical condition. A statement of the declarant's then existing state of mind, emotion, sensation, or physical condition (such as intent, plan, motive, design, mental feeling, pain, and bodily health), but not including a statement of memory or belief to prove the fact remembered or believed unless it relates to the execution, revocation, identification, or terms of declarant's will.

    So, when you say "Officer! I just...the gun...it just went off...I didn't mean to kill him..." in the immediate aftermath of a situation, the statement is in.

    True or not. Like it or not. Helpful or not. Regardless of your availability to testify at trial or the hearing.

    As to availability, taking the 5th means you are unavailable. They cannot compel you to testify, so regardless if you are sitting right their, you are unavailable.

    As to statements against interest, that is covered under 804(3):

    (3) Statement against interest. A statement which was at the time of its making so far contrary to the declarant's pecuniary or proprietary interest, or so far tended to subject the declarant to civil or criminal liability, or to render invalid a claim by the declarant against another, that a reasonable person in the declarant's position would not have made the statement unless believing it to be true. A statement tending to expose the declarant to criminal liability and offered to exculpate the accused is not admissible unless corroborating circumstances clearly indicate the trustworthiness of the statement.

    A statement such as the one made above would expose you to charges of criminal negligence in the discharge of your firearm because, obviously, you didn't mean to shoot.

    Self defense, a justification for an intentional act, is now frustrated because your statement against interest tends to offer a different theory of what occurred.

    Again, the original speaker of the statement against interest needs to be unavailable...but by not taking the stand, you have rendered yourself unavailable.

    If you wish to tell your side of the facts, go ahead.

    testify.

    Waive your right to remain silent. You have the right to testify in your own defense at trial.

    The choice to make a statement at any time before trial or at trial is a tactical decision to be made dependent on the facts of each case, and where in the case it is.

    If called in immediately, before any statement is made, a lawyer will have different advice to give a client than if called after he gave a statement without counsel present.

    In one case the advice would be "Keep quiet. I want to know their side of the case and pick it apart before you have to give a statement..."

    In another case, maybe I'd say "Well, you gave them a statement already and you basically admitted to what they accuse you of. I had better call the police and schedule another interview to make another statement to clarify what you said earlier...but yeah, it looks bad..."

    The professor says never talk to the police, but that is a general rule, just like the general rule of "Killing people is bad, m'kay?".

    Sometimes it is a necessity.


    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post

    If not, then why would there be any requests from the defense for other testimony? Couldn't they just put you on the stand to run through all those things they wanted the officers to say? Then they could turn around and tell the jury that you had already told all of that to the officers and make it sound like they're witholding evidence.
    You are asking about trial tactics.

    Individual, fact based decision for each situation.

    Be aware once you decide to waive your right to remain silent at trial, it is waived.

    Done.

    Finished.

    Dead.

    You don't get to tell your side of the case and then clam up.

    You tell your side of the case, then the state's attorney asks you why 15 bullets in the gun weren't enough, and you had to top it off (as she loads 15 into a mag, inserts it into the gun, drops the slide, drops the mag, tops off and reinserts it...), then she asks why you used the most lethal ammunition available on the market, the dreaded 127 grain +p+ Ranger Talon...then she asks why you practice so much...

    So their are down sides to everything.

    Maybe your case is one where the prosecution really doesn't have a case. Their argument can be frustrated and at the close of the state's argument you can move for a directed verdict of acquittal because they have not made their burden of proof...

    Maybe you are going to have to put on a defense but not testify yourself, just use a few experts to testify that yes, the entry of the bullet is consistent with a man shooting to defend himself as another man rushed at him with his arms raised as if to stab...

    And maybe you are going to have to get on the stand and tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you G-d...


    But making a statement without even talking to counsel helps you not at all in any situation.


    As to one of my earlier posts, I used the dreaded 'f' word.

    I'm sorry if I offended people, but I am not going to apologize for it.

    It needs to be said in as blunt a manner as possible.

    People spend thousands of dollars on a weapon, ammo, training, learning emergency medical skills...but they won't open their mind to the possibility that they don't know jack (must not say it...) about how to survive the aftermath and are insulted when someone who's very occupation it is tells them "Keep quiet, wait for me and talk to only me. This is a tricky situation and someone in the condition you will be in after using a firearm to protect yourself will not be able to deal with..."

    Do you do your own medical work on yourself after being shot?

    I'm not talking about emergency medicine as you wait for EMS...are you going to do surgery to take the 9mm out of your chest as it is lodged near your spine?

    No.

    Why not?

    Aren't you self reliant and don't need some over educated professional to tell you to let him handle it...

    Now apply that idea to insuring your can own a firearm in the future or see your kids grow as part of their lives instead of waiting for visiting day...

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    The Vid is down so i cannot comment on it . I will say that the statement of simply dont talk to police is ( imho ) both over broad and unrealistic. There is a certain ( altho limited ) amount of information you NEED to give the police especially on scene . For instance who and where the VCA is currently , how he/she is armed , just why you felt that presentation of your firearm and or actually firing rounds was necessary ( Officer the party attempted to rob me at gunpoint saying your dead mofo he is laying behind that dumpster , you can see his pistol from here on the pavement . No one has approached him since the incident . I would like my lawyer present before i answer any further questions or make any statements now. ) as an example . The problem will be that once you start talking it is hard to tell the nice officer to go away and dont bother me untill my attorney is present , so make sure you tell the responding officers you choose to have an attorney present for any further conversation on the incident . If you can think to tell every new officer you meet that you want to be cooperative and as soon as your attorney is present you will be glad to set down with the investigators for an interview/statement . Speaking of which MY attorney is on speed dial in my cell phone . We have discussed it and if i am involved in an incident out of states he is a member of the bar I still call him. He will then arrange for an attorney to represent me for the time of the initial interview in whatever jurisdiction i am subject to . So to recap I will make such statements as necessary to aid the investigation/public safety on scene and then in the same breath request an attorney , in fact the request for counsel is the end of the last sentience i speak about the incident . Once i am represented i will agree to an interview and making a statement under counsel's guidance . For both public safety and for my own interest I want the responding officers to quickly identify the other party , and to take his weapon(s) into custody. If he ran/drove off i will supply the best description of him , his dress , and his vehicle as i can then i will shut up untill i have counsel . Not only will counsel keep me from making mistakes in talking to the police but the time it takes me to involve them will allow me to calm down and make more rational statements so i dont blurt something like " Oh my god i shot him damm i am sorry " or some such that can be used effectively at trial if it comes to that . I may well have meant that i am sorry to have had to shoot a criminal who left me no other choice , but then said to a jury in a sterile courtroom months later that i am sorry for shooting him without cause when it is an accurate quote taken out of context and quoted by a prosecutor. If my hands are not shaking too bad to run my cell phone tho i will be on the phone to my attny before the first officers arrive . I will not stay online with 911 dispatch , rather i report , hang up and call my lawyer ( anything you say calling 911 is recorded for later use also . ) . I used to say leave the cell open and thusly record everything that goes on untill LE arrives . My counsel has since advised me not to . He said and tho its not a quote i will try and get close . Bob You already shot someone , and your not going to run away from the shooting like some gang banger . When the officers arrive you will likely be holding a pistol so it is kinda moot what you did after . Your ability to freely communicate is better spent to talk to me than to document how reasonable you can be after you already shot someone . He says call 911 and identify yourself , describe your clothes , and that there has been a shooting . Then and only then go on to call your attny with a heads up that there is a need for him .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  12. #41
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    I wrote Regent asking for information (link or .pdf) regarding Prof. Duane's topic of "Talking to the Police". If I hear anything back I'll post it.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  13. #42
    New Member Array mark00020's Avatar
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    If you get a chance to watch that video Redneck Repairs, it does seem to say presenting the why and admitting to whatever happened might not be in your best interest. I know we would all like to believe that the DA won't hang us out to dry over a justified shooting, but it does happen. You might not even end up being found guilty, but the cost of defending yourself alone being so prohibitive I wouldn't want to give any evidence on myself at all. Who knows, if the cops can't piece together what really happened and don't have enough evidence to even charge you, you could be spared the expense of defending yourself.

    A little background on me, I'm not a cop/authority hater, but I've been in one situation that had me on the other side of the law and I found out how quickly some police will embellish the facts to ensure their case. Previous to that I would have volunteered any information possible to assist police believing I was going to be treated as a generally law abiding citizen that made a mistake. I opened my mouth, took responsibility and apologized on the scene, was very respectful and even shared some stories about Marine Corps life with the officer since he was also a Marine (reservist, non-combatant, supply chain Marine but I suppose that still counts) and even after that the arresting officer wrote up in his report blatant exaggerations about my conduct before and during the arrest.

    anyway, to summarize, never again will I offer ANYTHING to a police officer because they are not on your side. They are on their side, no matter how you swing it.

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Mark, you said
    it does seem to say presenting the why and admitting to whatever happened might not be in your best interest.
    Honestly admitting anything is not in my best intrest including the fact that i am the " other " guy with a gun . Some would say ( not you i am sure ) that it would be in my best intrest to just walk off or drive off . Now i know i posted a " screed " but i strongly feel that the other party and his/her weapons are a strong argument for my side . so i will talk to responding officers in this limited fashion. My point is that like carry use has a social cost . If i am involved in another shooting i somewhat detailed what I would do . I have never shot anyone as a ccw . I however take lessons from what i have done as a representative of the state .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  15. #44
    New Member Array mark00020's Avatar
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    I would NEVER advocate leaving the scene unless you had really gotten yourself in a bad situation (ie: really bad neighborhood, etc... at which point you have to ask what were you doing there in the first place) and your life was put further in danger by staying. If I had to leave, I'd be on the phone with 911 on the way out, but I would hope I have enough situational awareness to never get myself into a situation that required something like that.
    I agree, the other party and the weapon of the other party is a strong argument... maybe because the state I reside in is so anti-gun, but I am very against offering up anything that may allow the anti-gun activists or prosecutors to put my head on a stake on the castle wall to warn other gun owners away.

    *I would also consider the impending civil suit that would probably follow a shooting, especially in my state.*
    Last edited by mark00020; May 6th, 2008 at 10:25 PM. Reason: clean up language

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    When people type out these convoluted ideas of what they would say after a use of force situation and how they would say it, it reminds me of people who talk about how their uber secret martial art with flashy complex moves can destroy any opponent...

    Not realizing that when the chips are down, its the simple things that can save your life...like conditioning, a fast jab, a tight right hook and an uppercut that can appear out of nowhere with all your body weight behind it.

    It reminds me of people who will spend thousands of dollars on the best gun, the best leather, a laser...but won't do 5 minutes of dry fire every other day.

    The answer to the question of what to say is simple. You can either accept it, or not.

    Your choice.

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